THSCC Forums

Let all the bitchin' and moanin' commence:

http://www.scca-chicago.com/solo/indexes/index.html

Summary, stock classes are mostly unchanged, with CS and FS getting the biggest break from 0.814 now at 0.811, and 0.806 to 0.803 respectivly ,the remainder all got about 0.001 easier.

A V-8 Camaro now needs to run a little *slower* than a 4 cylinder MR2 to pax the same. This also solidifies my belief that a used Camaro might be one fo the best values for a fun stock class car.

Street prepared mirrors stock, also being quite stable.

STS, on the other hand, jumps from 0.784 all the way to 0.791, so if you have been thinking that STS is too easy, well, you were right (it's still softer than D-Stock).

In spite of all the national hot-shoes in GS, it didn't get any harder.

SM got a bit harder, SM2 got a bit easier.

Scott

Whew! Glad I got out when I did.

Just kidding. I wouldn't see the PAX increase for STS as a bad thing if I was still there, just a little more of a challenge. That's only 0.4 sec on a 45 second course, which is a lot less than I would've had to improve if I wanted to win at a national-level event in STS...

Kevin

edit: just noticed that STX got easier... so, are you still driving the STi, Tom? For those who think that HP helps you a lot at an autox, Tom's car is about 100lbs heavier than mine and has at least another 100hp, but by PAX it's only 0.2sec faster on a 45-sec course.

Just ran some numbers (because it's fun). Over the course of this season (8 events) there were 29 top 15 PAX finishes over 8 events, if you re-compute with the new PAX numbers for STS the average finishing position would be 2.6 lower, with the max change being a drop of 7 places, and the minimum being zero.

We had STS taking FT-PAX at 3 of 8 events, that would have dropped to a more modest 1 event with the new scale (Kevin's win at the Sanford NCAC event).

The biggest gain was seen by Bill Gratton at the NCAC event, where he would have gone from 15th place up to 10th, several drivers were tied for 4 positions gained.

Scott

I think the jump in STS PAX has been expected. It is a result of the growth of the class and better preparation of the cars. But I think that STS has been getting knocked around some due to the 2003 PAX. Easy or not the 2003 PAX value shouldn’t reflect upon the quality of the drivers in STS nationally or locally.

So as an experiment, I have taken the results from our last points event and using the 2004 PAX values reindexed the results. While there might be other interesting changes in other classes, I basically was interested in STS since that is where I live. With the tougher PAX you still have Aaron in 3rd, Matt moved from 7 to 8 (but still top 10), Kevin (not in his regular car) dropped from 9 to 11, I dropped from 12 to 15th, etc. I think those are still respectable results and STS at least locally should be proud.

PS: Hopefully this chart shows up pretty well on most people's browsers

(edit: after I posted this, I saw Scott's post. So I guess I am not the only one who is "running the numbers")

<pre>
New Old New Old
Pos Pos Number Driver Car Raw Indexed Index Indexed Index
</pre>
<pre>
1 1 GSPRO25 Carl Fisher 96 Dodge Neon 67.276 52.543 0.781 52.61 0.782
2 2 DS23 Scott Johnson 00 Toyota Celica GTS 66.341 52.675 0.794 52.741 0.795
3 3 STSPRO7 Aaron Buckley 01 Toyota Celica GTS 67.387 53.303 0.791 52.831 0.784
4 6 ESPPRO21 Dan Ecclestone 04 Subaru WRX STi 64.773 53.373 0.824 53.502 0.826
5 4 GS17 Mary E. Fisher 96 Dodge Neon ACR 68.383 53.407 0.781 53.476 0.782
6 4 DSPRO59 Shawn Whipple 00 Acura Integra 67.265 53.408 0.794 53.476 0.795
7 8 DSPPRO32 Mike "Slacker" Whitney 89 Slow BMW 65.613 53.737 0.819 53.671 0.818
8 7 STS92 Matt Nicholson 92 nissan sentra 68.377 54.086 0.791 53.608 0.784
9 10 ESPPRO5 Tom Hoppe 02 Boxer4Racing WRX 65.888 54.292 0.824 54.423 0.826
10 11 SSM68 James Feinberg 90 Mazda Miata 64.026 54.358 0.849 54.486 0.851
11 9 STS55 Kevin Allen 01 Subaru Impreza 2.5RS 68.894 54.495 0.791 54.013 0.784
12 13 GST10 Phil Fausz 87 Honda CRX SI 69.999 54.669 0.781 54.739 0.782
13 14 GS42 Donna Frank 02 Toyota Celica 70.147 54.785 0.781 54.855 0.782
14 15 ESPRO86 Jim Pastorius 93 Toyota MR2 68.338 54.944 0.804 54.944 0.804
15 12 STS66 Richard Casto 98 Honda Civic LX Sedan 69.699 55.132 0.791 54.644 0.784
16 18 ES23 Jack Hall 91 Toyoda MR2 69.117 55.570 0.804 55.57 0.804
17 16 STS2 Chris Brown 99 VW GTI 70.295 55.603 0.791 55.111 0.784
18 17 STS555 Peter Baio 02 Subaru Impreza 2.5RS 70.337 55.637 0.791 55.144 0.784
19 19 GST97 Marc Davis 02 Ford SVT Focus 71.254 55.649 0.781 55.721 0.782
20 20 DS32 Sally Johnson 00 Toyota Celica GTS 70.144 55.694 0.794 55.764 0.795
21 21 EP5 Kurt Bishop 86 Honda CRX 64.839 55.826 0.861 55.956 0.863
22 22 SSMPRO78 Patrice Bousquet 73 PORSCHE 911 66.03 56.059 0.849 56.192 0.851
23 23 CSPPRO2 Bill Gratton 00 Mazda Miata 67.186 56.235 0.837 56.369 0.839
24 24 CSP54 Steve Pierce 87 honda crx si 67.236 56.277 0.837 56.411 0.839
25 27 DM7 Phil Wehman 97 Caterham Super 7 63.656 56.399 0.886 56.717 0.891
26 25 GS24 Charles Frank 02 Toyota Celica 72.358 56.512 0.781 56.584 0.782
27 26 AST22 Marcus McRae 04 Subaru WRX STI 68.358 56.600 0.828 56.6 0.828
28 28 GST75 Jason Mauldin 95 Nissan 240sx 72.632 56.726 0.781 56.798 0.782
29 29 GS2 Bill Ness 03 MINI Cooper S 72.969 56.989 0.781 57.062 0.782
30 30 ESP9 Ryan Holton 91 Eagle Talon TSi AWD 69.207 57.027 0.824 57.165 0.826
31 31 FS22 Don Forester 88 Ford Mustang 71.172 57.151 0.803 57.365 0.806
32 32 HS9 Dustin Fredrickson 91 Honda CRX 73.838 57.298 0.776 57.446 0.778
33 34 STX40 Brian Herring 03 Subaru Impreza WRX 72.699 57.796 0.795 58.014 0.798
34 33 ESP6 Vincent Keene 91 Eagle Talon TSi 70.194 57.840 0.824 57.98 0.826
35 35 DST66 Matt McBride 66 Ford Mustang 73.161 58.090 0.794 58.163 0.795
36 39 HST14 Paul McRoy 70 MG MGB 75.388 58.501 0.776 58.652 0.778
37 36 BST13 Rick Butters 02 Honda S2000 70.872 58.540 0.826 58.469 0.825
38 37 DSP32 Kendra Whitney 89 BMW 325is 71.506 58.563 0.819 58.492 0.818
39 38 DSP77 Shane Kaliher 86 Volkswagen GTI 71.576 58.621 0.819 58.549 0.818
40 41 GS0 Brian Richards 96 Audi A4 2.8Q 75.234 58.758 0.781 58.833 0.782
41 40 SM81 Kent Young 81 Chevy Z-28 70.516 59.092 0.838 58.81 0.834
42 42 DSP20 Mark Musser 93 BMW 325is 72.196 59.129 0.819 59.056 0.818
43 44 CSP26 Brad Mackey 93 Mazda Miata 1.6L 70.717 59.190 0.837 59.332 0.839
44 48 CST32 Brian Whalen 00 Mazda Miata 73.123 59.303 0.811 59.522 0.814
45 43 BS1 Les Davis 91 Toyota MR2 Turbo 71.899 59.389 0.826 59.317 0.825
46 45 ES13 Rob Lupella 90 Mazda Miata 73.89 59.408 0.804 59.408 0.804
47 46 AST56 Graham Jagger 92 Chevrolet Corvette 71.808 59.457 0.828 59.457 0.828
48 47 DSP10 Matt Anderson 86 BMW 325es 72.703 59.544 0.819 59.471 0.818
49 49 DSP111 Adam Ligon 91 VW GLI 72.98 59.771 0.819 59.698 0.818
50 50 BS79 Carl Bauer 79 Porsche 911SC 72.362 59.771 0.826 59.699 0.825
51 51 DST4 Simon Wright 02 Subaru Impreza WRX 75.562 59.996 0.794 60.072 0.795
52 52 ESP30 Arthur McDonald 90 Ford Mustang LX 5.0 72.905 60.074 0.824 60.22 0.826
53 57 CS7 Ashraf Farrag 94 Mazda Miata 74.136 60.124 0.811 60.347 0.814
54 54 HSL9 Malia Fredrickson 91 Honda CRX 77.492 60.134 0.776 60.289 0.778
55 55 ESPT29 Kevin Butler 00 Pontiac Trans Am WS6 73.003 60.154 0.824 60.3 0.826
56 56 GSN89 Michael Walliser 89 Volkswagen Jetta GLi 77.117 60.228 0.781 60.305 0.782
57 53 DSP5 Charles Guthrie 87 BMW 325is 73.623 60.297 0.819 60.224 0.818
58 60 CSP48 Clay Rouse 91 mazda miata 72.141 60.382 0.837 60.526 0.839
59 58 DSP1 Chris Baker 86 BMW 325es 73.831 60.468 0.819 60.394 0.818
60 61 DST9 David Frankel 01 Acura Integra Type R 76.29 60.574 0.794 60.651 0.795
61 62 GST7 Tonya Mauldin 95 Nissan 240sx 77.706 60.688 0.781 60.766 0.782
62 63 FS42 Todd Breakey 02 Ford Mustang GT 75.583 60.693 0.803 60.92 0.806
63 59 SMT41 Jonathan Rodriguez 87 Toyota Supra 72.494 60.750 0.838 60.46 0.834
64 64 CSPT89 Thomas Burke 88 Mazda RX-7 72.802 60.935 0.837 61.081 0.839
65 65 ASPT8 Eric Miller 88 Toyota MR2 SC 72.408 61.257 0.846 61.257 0.846
66 66 SSM87 Kathy Gleason 73 PORSCHE 911 72.218 61.313 0.849 61.458 0.851
67 68 FSP26 Jamie Palmer 71 Triumph Spitfire 75.519 61.397 0.813 61.548 0.815
68 69 GST31 Michael Westerfield 91 Acura Integra 78.711 61.473 0.781 61.552 0.782
69 67 DSP15 Patrick Wellenius 93 VW Corrado 75.156 61.553 0.819 61.478 0.818
70 70 SSM1 Gordon Taylor 99 Mazda Miata 72.609 61.645 0.849 61.79 0.851
71 72 GST83 Stephen Westerfield 91 Acura Integra 79.141 61.809 0.781 61.888 0.782
72 73 CSPT513 Jamie Benson 94 Toyota MR2 73.878 61.836 0.837 61.984 0.839
73 71 BST6 Mitch Moore 99 Porsche Boxster 74.973 61.928 0.826 61.853 0.825
74 76 STX811 Mike Johnson 03 Subaru Impreza WRX 78.155 62.133 0.795 62.368 0.798
75 75 CSP73 Craig Dawson 01 Mazda Miata 74.254 62.151 0.837 62.299 0.839
76 74 AST91 Bill Howlett 92 Acura NSX 75.116 62.196 0.828 62.196 0.828
77 77 CSP8 Neal Harrington 88 Pontiac Fiero GT 74.364 62.243 0.837 62.391 0.839
78 78 AST5 Miranda Baumann 04 WRX STi 75.43 62.456 0.828 62.456 0.828
79 79 CSPT51 Tom Freeman 91 Mazda Miata 74.844 62.644 0.837 62.794 0.839
80 80 FST57 Newsome Moore 96 Chev Supersport 78.094 62.709 0.803 62.944 0.806
81 81 CSPT618 Frank Catena 95 Mazda Miata 75.074 62.837 0.837 62.987 0.839
82 82 CSL17 Amy Mindick 99 Mazda Miata 77.873 63.155 0.811 63.389 0.814
83 86 DSN6 Paul Yoon 03 Nissan Sentra SER V 79.96 63.488 0.794 63.568 0.795
84 83 BSN133 Greg McGann 91 Porsche 944 76.876 63.500 0.826 63.423 0.825
85 84 CP44 Joel Heywood 95 Ford Cobra 74.375 63.516 0.854 63.442 0.853
86 85 DSP31 Marcus Spade 87 VW GTI 77.604 63.558 0.819 63.48 0.818
87 87 HSN4 Roger Stone 95 Geo Prizm 82.182 63.773 0.776 63.938 0.778
88 88 SSM2 Cathie Taylor 99 Mazda Miata 75.266 63.901 0.849 64.051 0.851
89 90 ESP0 Steven Beckmeyer 87 BMW 535is 77.689 64.016 0.824 64.171 0.826
90 91 GST229 Wes Eargle 00 Ford Contour SVT 82.375 64.335 0.781 64.417 0.782
91 93 HSN44 Dale Schendel 83 Toyota Corolla 83.326 64.661 0.776 64.828 0.778
92 89 STS51 Pete Guthrie 92 datsun sentra se-r 81.763 64.675 0.791 64.102 0.784
93 92 DSN3 Satyaki Guha 02 SUbaru WRX 81.519 64.726 0.794 64.808 0.795
94 94 CSP90 Adam Menges 92 Mazda Miata 77.358 64.749 0.837 64.903 0.839
95 97 FSP61 Gary Drennan 73 volkswagen super 79.892 64.952 0.813 65.112 0.815
96 95 GST101 Jessica Fausz 87 Honda CRX SI 83.223 64.997 0.781 65.08 0.782
97 96 GSN77 Jeff Bailey 99 Oldsmobile Intrigue 83.258 65.024 0.781 65.108 0.782
98 98 ESN20 David Butterfield 83 mazda rx7 81.047 65.162 0.804 65.162 0.804
99 99 FST335 Matthew Thomson 85 BMW 535i 81.204 65.207 0.803 65.45 0.806
100 100 CSPT819 Joan Catena 95 Mazda Miata 78.859 66.005 0.837 66.163 0.839
101 101 ASPN8 Michael Miller 88 Toyota MR2 SC 78.25 66.200 0.846 66.2 0.846
102 102 SSM86 Kristin Cauldwell 90 Mazda Miata 78.304 66.480 0.849 66.637 0.851
103 103 HSN5 Vincent MacFawn 03 Toyota Corolla 86.124 66.832 0.776 67.004 0.778
104 104 CSP47 Angela Rouse 02 Mazda Miata 79.897 66.874 0.837 67.034 0.839
105 105 GST212 Bill Gary 02 Nissan Maxima SE 85.726 66.952 0.781 67.038 0.782
106 106 AM47 James Jack 88 Honda FSAE 67.054 67.054 1 67.054 1
107 107 HSLN134 Karen McGann 93 Toyota Paseo 87.785 68.121 0.776 68.297 0.778
108 108 CSPT3 David Luttrell 97 Mazda Miata 81.667 68.355 0.837 68.519 0.839
109 109 SSM5 Jeffrey Eng 99 Mazda Miata 80.649 68.471 0.849 68.632 0.851
110 110 HSN10 Michele McRoy 99 Honda Accord 88.361 68.568 0.776 68.745 0.778
111 111 CSPT33 Barry Knuth 91 Honda CRX Si 82.016 68.647 0.837 68.811 0.839
112 112 DSN513 Terry Wang 03 Nissan Sentra 86.94 69.030 0.794 69.117 0.795
113 115 STX81 H Poteat 03 Subaru Impreza WRX 87.224 69.343 0.795 69.605 0.798
114 114 GST777 Eric Baxter 89 Volvo 740 88.878 69.414 0.781 69.503 0.782
115 113 CP33 Christopher Walker 93 Ford Mustang GT 81.368 69.488 0.854 69.407 0.853
116 116 SMN13 Sean Fraser 73 VW BUG 84.073 70.453 0.838 70.117 0.834
117 117 FSN2 David Jones 02 Pontiac Firebird 87.741 70.456 0.803 70.719 0.806
118 118 FSP21 Daniel Camacho 80 Datsun 210 wagon 86.94 70.682 0.813 70.856 0.815
119 119 CSPN461 David Henry 85 Mazda RX 7 85.76 71.781 0.837 71.953 0.839
120 120 CSPN46 Jim Henry 85 mazda rx7 gsl-se 87.245 73.024 0.837 73.199 0.839
121 121 ESPN79 Brett Stahl 79 Chevrolet Camaro 91.179 75.131 0.824 75.314 0.826
122 122 SMN252 Chris Shearon 92 Ford Mustang 94.058 78.821 0.838 78.444 0.834
</pre>

_________________
Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

I've run the numbers for all events, but just mangled the spread sheet sporting by driver... Should have saved more frequenly.

Oh well.

The latest Sanford event wasw a bit of an anomoly due to car changes and cone counts.

Several events had huge changes accross the board, others only had a few positions invert.

Edit: over 8 events, there were 40 top 15 drivers that would have lost PAX spots, of those 40 drivers 27 were in STS cars, 5 in SM cars, 3 DS cars (kind of odd), and 4 DSP cars and one GS car.

Of course not a single STS or SM car showed any improvement at any event.

Scott

The PAX is based upon AM being 1.000. The new technology the AM cars are using has made them a lot faster. This is why you see many of the other classes with a slight reduction in their PAX, it all relative to AM being 1.000.

Any class that stayed status quo, actually increased

_________________
Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

Personally, I think we should only use raw times (including cones, of course)

_________________
Dick Rasmussen

FS 50 2018 Mustang GT

I checked out some results, too, since we're starved for work here. I would've been top 5 in PAX (at the events where I used my car) with the new index, and Tom would've killed us all with the new weak-ass STX index.

I also checked out the night series results based on me running DSP pax, and ended up 3rd behind Scott and Mike. But if you guys don't improve (much) in the next two events, and I win both of them, I'll have 1st... (theoretically, anyway)

Apparently I need something to do...

For Richard's posting, he did. My 67.xxx was my time with a cone... Without it, I'd be the king of the hill, even with the new pax. - AB

_________________
'14 Toyota Sequoia Platinum 4WD
Super Westerfield Bros - '93 Integra - LeChump Du Jour
STX 93 - Scion FR-S

I am not sure, but was it a "good" or "bad" anomoly? Regarding the high cone counts, of the six STS drivers only two had clean runs. One was myself (two runs) and the other was Matt (two runs). Kevin's second place in STS was with three coned runs and one DNF! Also as you say there were car changes as Kevin was not in his own car! So maybe STS should have PAXed even higher? Even with the 2004 PAX value? Who knows what the answer is to that. I personally think that the cone count was probably pretty evenly distributed across all classes, so it probably evened out in the end.



Exactly. By definition since SM and STS had PAX values that moved closer to "1.0" their results could go nowhere but south. Not only did SM and STS get hit the hardest, the values are even harder than they first seem to be since most everyone else moved slightly farther away from "1.0" and have easier PAX values.

And just to make things clear, I have no problem with the 2004 STS PAX value. I just thought that even with the 2004 value STS as a group doesn't suck.

_________________
Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

Dick,

I agree, lets just forget about PAXing

I think we need a new class without pax.... RAW CLASS

_________________
'91 Miata STS2 project
'96 328i Sport Pkg

Not that I want to give Aaron a fat head or anything , but it was a 67.387 after penalty for a single cone.

When I mentioned the conage in STS in my previous post it was for STS open and didn't include Aaron who ran Pro. He also had just one clean run (which was not his fastest), two coned and one DNF.

_________________
Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

Aaron,

I wasn't clear. I meant (in fun) "forget PAX" and just go with actual times. My view "might" have something to do with the speed of my usual autocross car.

_________________
Dick Rasmussen

FS 50 2018 Mustang GT

I like Dick's idea of running a raw time class. I will run it if it's a course with 4 cones in the shape of a box, and Dishman's Z06. That's a course I would feel comfortable with. - AB

_________________
'14 Toyota Sequoia Platinum 4WD
Super Westerfield Bros - '93 Integra - LeChump Du Jour
STX 93 - Scion FR-S

"My view "might" have something to do with the speed of my usual autocross car. "

Dick, when are some of us somewhat newbies going to get to meet you? I've heard so much about you that you're already a legend. Hell, I'm not even sure you really exist! Anyway, I'm looking for the day when I see you on course.

phil