THSCC Forums

I'm game if THSCC starts allowing Shifter Karts. Come on Guys let me get one and run it. I'll even put one of those orange flags on it so people don't run me over in the pits because they can't see over the giant hood scoop on thier STI's . STS is still the most attractive class for me to run considering my financials and car I want.

PS my PAX dropped, "Ya'll are in BIG TROUBLE!"(ala Billy Madison)

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2006 Civic Si - #24 HS for 2015

2005 GMC Sierra
1991 318is Garage Ornament

[quote="PhilFausz
Dick, when are some of us somewhat newbies going to get to meet you? I've heard so much about you that you're already a legend. Hell, I'm not even sure you really exist! Anyway, I'm looking for the day when I see you on course.

phil[/quote]

Phil,

Thanks for the compliment. I'm not sure I exist anymore (as an active autocrosser). Life combined with the lack of NC sites compatible with a formula car on slicks have limited my local autocrossing for a few years. I'm looking forward to meeting a lot of newbies before I become a total has been.

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Dick Rasmussen

FS 50 2018 Mustang GT

Dick,
Come back out and play next year! James Jack has recently purchased an FSAE so there will be a regular AM class! I probably will be bumped into AM from DM a few times, too.

We need more true mods at the events - more noise and less comfort!

Phil

I just read Jim's message on the competing PAX thread where he says he wants a "PAX SUX" sticker for his car!

Jim, make up the stickers and I’ll buy one! It's time for my semi-annual rant about PAX.

Rant mode on

Right up front I’ll admit I’m a long-time pax-hater. It’s hilarious how much time is collectively spent worrying over PAX, when it is almost completely useless.

It’s derived from the results of national-caliber drivers with fully prepared cars. Yet we attempt to use it in Novice and Tire classes which don’t generally reflect either of the above. And, there is the classic complaint that this course or that condition doesn’t work well for PAX for some reason or the other.

The only class THSCC runs that it makes any sense in is the PRO class since it is closer to the national caliber.

I still think we should de-pax (like de-tox?) and move everyone into the open classes. Apply a tire multiplier (we can come up with one that is every bit as accurate as pax). Move the Novices into the open classes and if they truly enjoy the sport they will be back anyway (novices are only novices for 3 events or a trophy anyway).

We break out PAX classes so more people can trophy and feel good. I don’t understand how there can be much satisifaction from comparing times against an index that doesn’t reflect the reality of running at the local level. Personally I’d rather get my butt kicked in tougher open competition than trophy in a weaker class. There isn’t a lot of DM action in this club – often I’m unopposed. I’ve got a ton of wood on my garage wall, but most of the meaningful trophies are the ones that say FTM or FTD because they are against tough competitors.

I know I'm in the minority here, but so there!

Rant mode off - Flame away!

Um, OK.

Nice post, lots of "thoughts" in it, and absolutely no substance whatsoever on a real proposal to change things. Why not sit down do a little homework and comeback when you actually *do* have a proposal. We (the club officers) will be glad to hear it.

The officers of the club have a lot of duties and many of them are to focus on what the club membership as a *whole* wants.

Lets look at some numbers here (just ball park figures):

Average DM attendence at THSCC events: <1
Average street tire class attendence: >15

Even if you eliminate non members from the equation you end up with 8 to 10:1 ratio. Hmm, looks like the membership has spoken.

Rather than complain about PAX sucks, etc, why not actually prep the car you have? PAX would suck a lot less in a true DM car. Instead of just barely beating DSP and SM2 cars, why not actually beat them by 6 seconds?

Right now, PAX is the best yard stick that we've got, I'm happy to entertain other ideas, but I don't have the time to analyze all of them and write proposals for all of them, so if you want to see something different do the homework!

Scott

Phil!! I have the perfect solution!! Buy everyone a Caterham!

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Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

Phil I don't think you are entirely right on this subject. I typically PAX to the Top 30 overall at most events, I've even PAXed into the Top 10 twice this year on street tires. Granted they are somewhat of ringer tires but they aren't racetires by anymeans. I beleive the argument of PAX not being accurate is irrelevent as it seems very few people can drive fast enough to get everything out of the car anyway. Personally, I'm not an experienced enough driver to get everything out of my car, only two events this year that I can think of I maybe couldn't have gone faster. Just this past week at the Triad event I ended up 7th overall and I felt I drove like complete crap, I even DNFed my last two runs because I couldn't concentrate because I pulled a Buckley the night before . I could have easily gone a half second or more faster. I've run in TIR class and plan to stay there for awhile because it's fun running against all the other types of cars, even when I get my new toy sometime soon I plan to keep it stock most of the season while I learn about the car. The top cars in TIR class are all pretty well prepared or new. All mine is missing is wheels, konis, and a muffler. None of those items would make a world of difference in a car. I think if you put some R compounds on my car I'd do quite well in PRO class with my car the way it is against the well prepared cars in the club. And even if i did finish last, it'd be because I coned or drove poorly and not because my car sucks. The simple fact is, if you go 100% you will pax high.

Also, what is the harm in paxing results, It's not like I'm gunna come to open class and beat your Caterham outright with my Cavalier(I take that back, It is a 300hp Cavalier Type R with LSD and F1 suspension i've got a shot at you). You could make the argument that not paxing results is silly because not everybody wants an AMOD car to finish high overall. And we allready recognize the people with FTSP or FTM and all that. There's nothing wrong with the way the PAX classes are done. Everybody in them accepts that there are some irregularities introduced, besides there is always AMOD if you don't want an Index.

_________________
2006 Civic Si - #24 HS for 2015

2005 GMC Sierra
1991 318is Garage Ornament

Note to self: Never post when in a bad mood...never post when in a bad mood.



Fair enough, Scott. I had 2 specific proposals to change things and will be happy to write them up in more detail. I fully realize I'm in the minority here, so I won't get mad if they aren't accepted.



You describe my point exactly. For PAX to be any kind of yardstick, everyone has to be fully prepared to class limit. I have no intention of turning my car into a true DM. It would be unusable for anything but autocross. So, I must take the good with the bad. If a DM comes along and kicks my butt I will live with the whipping or I will spend the money to become competitive. But I won't ask that a new class for "not quite fully prepared" be created for me.

Great - as long as they buy mine. It's for sale, you know.

I had an interesting PAX-related experience this past Sunday. As some of you know (and even experienced), Triad held the last event for the club at the LJVM site on Sunday. Traditionally, this site is very slippery-- much more slippery than even Sanford and with the cold weather, it felt like driving on an ice skating rink.

Even in hot conditions, I usually have a very hard time putting the power down at this place. During my first 2 runs, I left the boost at my “normal” auto-x setting of 10psi and literally couldn’t get more than half-throttle without spinning the rear tires. Needless to say, even though they were near the top of the raw charts, my times weren’t particularly impressive. My best time was my 2nd run which was a 52.9 with massive amounts of wheel spin everywhere. Everybody with higher hp’d cars was having a difficult time-- except those pesky WRX’s. The VP of the Triad club turned in a what seemed to be blistering 2nd run of 51.9 (albeit with a cone) on his second run driving his STX-prepped WRX. I knew then it would probably be a long day…

For my 2 afternoon runs, I decided to turn the boost down to my “wet weather” setting of 7psi figuring I might be able to use more than half-throttle this time. It seemed to work on my 3rd run where I managed what would have been FTD with a 50.9 but I hit 2 cones with the rear of the car. Strangely enough, I was still having fairly massive wheel spin issues under acceleration but it was just manageable enough to keep under control unlike my previous runs. I say it was strange because the grip still seemed far less than the wet night event we had a few weeks ago.

Figuring I would go for broke on the last run and lay off the cones a bit, I thought I had a mid 50 second run in me. Much to my surprise, as I started the run and turned into the first left-hander, the car pushed like a dump truck. From there, it only got worse. By the end of the run, I could barely turn left even though the car felt fairly normal turning to the right. I thankfully managed to run a 52.1 to stay ahead of my other SM2 competitor that day but knew something was wrong. When I got back to the pits, I noticed my right front tire looked a little soft. It was down to 14psi and upon subsequent examination, I found a 2 inch screw lodged in the tread. There were a lot of sharp metal objects on the course during the walk-through and I guess I missed that one. Oh well.

Anyway, finally getting to the point of all this , the VP of the Triad club asked me what happened on my last run and I told him my sob story. He graciously allowed me to take his WRX on a fun run which I turned down at first (I know, what was I thinking?). He insisted so I finally took him up on his offer. After getting a few tips from his co-driver, I nervously staged the car.

WOW! What a blast! I kinda blew the first 2 turns by overdriving them but once acquainted with the turning capabilities (or lack thereof) of the car, I settled in for the rest of the run. Man, I was blown away by the fact that I could actually turn the car and accelerate at the same time. What a concept! It was *much* easier to drive than my car in those conditions. I managed to rip off a cone-free 51.5 lap which was .03 seconds faster than his best for the day and would have been the 3rd fastest raw time (fastest was 51.1) and the fastest PAX time of the day. With another run, I’m sure I could have gotten another 1/2 or even possibly a full second out of it. With a few more runs, who knows where it could have ended up? Needless to say, there was no way I could have ever driven my car that easily and that quickly in those conditions. I’m starting to see the beauty of AWD!

My point? Well, I have none really. OK, well I must admit the experience did shed a little more light on the whole PAX-disparity thing for me. I can see how in “ideal” conditions, the PAX might work very well but with the varied surfaces and temperature conditions we drive in locally, it really has some rough edges. Do I have a solution? Heck no! Is there a solution? I don’t think there is any way anybody will ever be able to devise anything that even comes remotely close to factoring in the myriad of variables we deal with at an auto-x. About the only thing we can do is either have a spec car as suggested before (not likely) or if somebody is talking smack about how they beat you in the PAX standings, let them co-drive your car or vice-versa.

What am I going to do for now? Well, with the SM2 PAX softening for next year, I’m going to lay the PAX smack down on all you sucka’s!!! OK, definitely not so I’ll just take the alternative approach: Shut Up and Drive!

Jim
-- who is wondering what kind of a chance an AWD Plymouth Laser might have in STX next year… no, really???

-- and who also is now clear on why I don't post to the forum much-- I talk too da#m much!

And this means you come out for one reason, and one reason alone, to have *fun*. Since you don't prep the car remotely to the limit, and there is rearely even any competition for you, why mess with the system that allows a lot of good competition for teh people that want it?

As a side note, I do think it would be interesting to allow Mod (not SM) and Prepared cars in street tire class if they are on *any* DOT tire. The shift between a slick and a DOT tire is along the lines of the shift between DOT race tires and notmal street tires...

Scott

Jim-

Buy new tires already! There is no reason why your car, on good tires can't PAX in the top 10 at most every event (rain being the possible exception).

Fix the brakes while you are in there too...

The problem, of course, is that tires cost money, and not everyone can afford (or desires) to spend the money. Of course, that gets back to this very topic that we discussed thoroughly not too long ago. Winning takes money, and the people at the top probably have done two things:

1) Driven well
2) Spent more money

Scott

[quote="scottjohnson
As a side note, I do think it would be interesting to allow Mod (not SM) and Prepared cars in street tire class if they are on *any* DOT tire. The shift between a slick and a DOT tire is along the lines of the shift between DOT race tires and notmal street tires...

Scott[/quote]

Neat. Probably not practical for my CM car but neat idea anyway. Can race tires over two years old be considered to be equal to DOT R tires? How about if the temperature is below 50 F?

By the way, in the old days (long before PAX as far as I know), I would do my own "informal" comparisons with key competitors in other classes in the San Francisco area since at that time (late 70's and early 80's) there were numerous National Champions running in the area. Most of the most consistent were in faster classes than either my Datsun 260Z or my later Lotus Europa so I simply did a percentage of the fastest drivers in various classes to see how I was doing that day. I would factor in course design, time of day, etc. to add a "reality check" if either their times or mine was way off the norm.

By the way, I wasn't advocating dropping the use of PAX. It obviously serves a popular need. Now that George Bowland (Current AM National Champion) lives in NC (Tryon) we can go to NC events and see how we do against the car/driver combination that defines the index of 1.000 (now that is a tough index).

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Dick Rasmussen

FS 50 2018 Mustang GT

Yea yea, I know. I will buy new tires before the first regular event next year. Hopefully Kumho will get off their collective duffs and release the V710’s in quantity and in a size I can manage by then. If not, I’m not sure what I’ll do. Stay with the 225/45/15’s, try some 245/45/16’s on just the rear or try some 235/45/13’s all around? Those 13’s look very appealing but they weren’t on the initial V710 fitment list that keeps floating around the ‘net.

And I’m working on a braking solution too… I probably need to talk with Adam Ligon about biasing the front and rear pads since I have some “Carbotech Bucks” from the NCAC events. Hey Adam, any ideas for something in a street/auto-x only pad (no track events) that would give me more bite in the rear than the front?

Anyway, I wasn’t complaining about the PAX system. I was just relating my (limited) experience with it and how it pertained to me for that particular event. I think that if I could have driven an ideal lap *for me* in both cars on Sunday, they would have netted about equal raw times. The interesting part to me is that I was working my a$$ off driving my car that fast while it felt like I was taking a leisurely Sunday cruise driving the WRX. And I had never even driven a WRX before. It was a pretty good eye-opener…

Considering I would have had to drive my car over 3 seconds faster to net the same PAX time, it was a good indication on how far off my car was in those conditions, on that day with my driving style. Even if I had fresh tires and sorted out my poor braking performance, I don’t think I could have managed to shave off another 3 seconds in my car unless the conditions were drastically different. On a relatively hotter day with fresh hoosiers, perhaps things would have been different but who knows. Of course, that doesn’t even get into the relative preparation levels of the 2 cars towards their respective classes.

All in all, I like the PAX system. Like I said before, there is no way to ever compensate for all the conditions we run in so we just deal with what we have. I do believe that the PAX can be extremely biased towards certain cars under certain conditions and I don’t think anybody can argue with that. At the local level, this probably doesn’t equal itself out over the course of a season but at least it gives us a point to argue over. Not that I am arguing!

Jim

I just thought it was cool ES PAX went up and most of the others stayed the same. I jsut think it is reflection on the quality of competition in ES at the National level. The top ES would have been 2nd in CS and the top 7 ES drivers would have trophied in CS. That is based upon raw time people, no pax needed.

The PRO class is second silliest class going.

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Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner