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I am curious about the concept of using the brake to turn the car. This is the first I have heard of it. Personally, I would tell a student the brake is only for slowing the car.

You can use the throttle to help turning. The MR2 responded very well to throttle steering. Actually a little too good IMO. I found myself using the throttle to steer the car more than I should. It got to be a bad habit for me and let Jim F whip me all the time

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Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

Jim, I'm not sure if this is was Kevin was referring to...but, Braun and Telehowski repeatedly told Donnie, Chris, and I that we needed to "use the brakes to turn the car." That seemed a bit strange to me in a Miata, but after driving that particular car which is very pushy (when it's setup correctly) I now understand where they are coming from (i.e., simply trail braking and keeping enough contract patch on the outside to get the car close enough to mid coner where you are then able to commit to aggreesive throtte all the way through exit). Essentially carving the corner or driving it as if it's on rails. They were right in that if you don't trail brake, it won't turn. While that particular car doesn't react well to much rotation, other Miatas respond to braking at the point where it induces corner entry rotation, similiar to a Spyder, which can be really effective if done correctly - though that is definitely an advanced maneuver. I'm probably way off base, as usual, but thought I'd take a stab at it.

Eric

I'll say with certainty that if you set up the Miata to be pushy on corner entry (just a little) and then you trail brake it half way in a corner (not much brake required, mind you, but you have to hold it all the way in), that you can then roll very quickly on the gas (don't pound it, but roll very quickly) and you will carve through that corner with an insane amount of energy and speed. It's mind boggling.

It's also mind boggling in trying to get the setup right and then in doing it consistantly. I have done it, and you know it when you do it. But it's been a long time since I felt it. Like probably the Pro Finale in 2004.

It's not an easy setup to find, but it's way easier than setting up a Spyder to be fast.


--Donnie

Exactly! I tried it once at the Sunday NCAC event. It was the left hand turn going downhill on the approach to the big sweeper (left, right, sweep left). I got mid-turn and kinda poked the brake pedal. It worked too good and I got way out of shape. Since I was struggling for a decent finish that weekend, I figured I was better off not experimenting any further.

The same trick can be applied on track where a lift on the gas won't work (provided the car isn't too tight)

Hopefully, at the school we can have a feature or two that will facilitate practicing this kind of maneuver.

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“I feel safer on a racetrack than I do on Houston's freeways.” - A.J. Foyt

Kevin Butler
Mobetta Autosport Spec E30 #612
2003 C5 Z06 Corvette
AFR Miata, SM2 61, '93 w/200 SC'd RWHP - soon to be resurrected
Waaaay too many other projects....

hmmn push, trail brake, turn. almost sounds bmw'ish. completely off topic as i don't use this technique while autoX'ing. well, at least not intentionally. it does seem to be my driving style on track however. (limited as it is)

I tell my students the brake is to transfer weight to help the car turn, NOT to slow down except at such features as a pivot cone. That's the way we drive the Celica to get it to rotate. Same with the Mini Cooper, never lift more tha 1/2 throttle trail brake to turn the car. There's no way to throttle steer a FWD (unless you lif in a turn, then it will "throttle steer" around in a loop).

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SPIN or WIN!
there's no glory for going slow.

So the gas is to transfer weight to the rear, *not* to actually accelerate? Well, except out of a pivot cone?

And turning the steering wheel to the left isn't intended to turn the car, it's just to transfer weight to the right? Of course, except out of a pivot cone? And vice versa?

And Eric taking a dump right before his runs isn't really because he feels the need, it's to transfer weight to the port-a-john?

Sorry, couldn't resist.


--Donnie

Ok, my understanding is that if you use the gas, brakes (or steering) to try to transfer weight of the car, you have to be accelerating or decelerating the vehicle in some direction. So if you "brake" to transfer weight to the front, you are in effect allowing the momentum of the car to try to move the car forward relative to the tire contact patches (rate of acceleration of contact patch is lower than the rest of the car). This is what is going to load up the front suspension more and increase size of contact patch in the front relative to the rear. I am no supension expert, but I think this is also the rotation of the car around it's roll center (Wish I had Fred Puhn's book in front of me right now. I assume you can calculate the roll center for the entire car and not just front/rear suspension)

So you can't brake without changing your acceleration. This change in acceleration is either going to slow you down (if you are moving at a steady speed or have zero acceleration), or if you are increasing in speed already, you would not increase as fast as before. So there is no such thing as braking without slowing down. Right?

My follow up question would be the use of gas and brake at the same time and if this actually works (and why)?

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Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

As a student next weekend this is what I'm looking for:

1. Reacclimate myself to driving in anger. I've missed more events this season than I've made. I'll bring air sickness bags for my first instructor.

2. Work on retaining more information from the course walks. I think a lot of this has to do with how to reconcile what I see on the walk to what I do in the driver's seat. I think I can pick out pretty good lines, but I have a pretty rotten time estimating speed in each feature.

3. Like someone else said, find that line between 9/10s and 13/10 and walk it consistantly.

4. Jim F pointed out to me at the last school that I'm not doing any one thing "wrong" I'm just getting nickled and dime through out the entire course. I really want to work on that fine tuning element—throttle adjustments in slaloms, better exit from pivot cones, etc. All the little stuff that moves you from mid pack to beating Vincent by more than .001 of a second.

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Not spectacular just decent.
I'm not sure what I'm driving.
Maybe an ITR in DS.
Or half-assed STX prepped 330.

I hear all this about 10/10th's and anger. The why to improve is to execute what you have set up in your mind during the course walks. When you pull to the line, you should have a sense of calm. You know what you want to do, you know what the car is going to do. It is a matter at that point of execution.

Erir P drilled into me the mental aspect of the sport. Really, there is very little physically involved, the expection is the hand/eye coordination. AX is very mental sport.

I had asked for one course. We would change the course on you through out the day. Giving you one course walk the first change and no course walks on the second change...some of you know who I am copying I can not say it because I caught hell for it after one of our novice schools.

Doing something like this reinforces looking ahead and even more importantly, thinking ahead.

Thinking ahead is a concept we do not touch upon nearly enough. One trick is talking to the instructor and telling him what you are thinking while driving

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Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

I have always mentioned this to people I have road with, think ahead look ahead, to me this is the most basic thing everyone can do to be better, I know when I do it I am better, I have not been doing it much this season...

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David Teague
2015 Lexus IS 250c
1994 Honda Del Sol HS 39
2009 Dodge Journey R/T
http://teaguefamily.us

I'm not sure who is running the school but I want to give my $0.02 on the format.

Run the school as a regular, normal autocross. Course walks, four runs, and complete T&S and results.

We're trying to learn to be better autocrossers, and I don't see much value in getting a dozen runs. Autocross is about being able to, as Jim, said, execute to a plan. A LOT of time should be spent on why or why not a person is able to do that. Planning, planning, planning. The driving itself is almost secondary.

I think a LOT of time should be spent on the coursewalks and strategy -- both course strategy and mental. Maybe group the instructors according to which coursewalk strategy they are going to focus on and let the students choose who to go with.

Then maybe let the instructors announce what advaned techniques they are most interested in teaching and again let students pick who they want to go with.

If I had to pick, here is what I would work on:

Coursewalks - How to NOT be surprised by anything during your first run. Learning the course in 2 walks. "Feeling the car" during course walks. Eric P's "close your eyes and drive the course" technique.

Driving - the 9/10th to 11/10th strategy that Rob mentioned, importance of "connectors" (the space between elements), maximizing the fast parts, why slow stuff doesn't matter as long as you don't overdrive it.

Those are the things I would focus on. But again, all this is done prior to the runs. At an advanced level there is actually very little to be taught after runs begin, except to analyze deviations from the plan, where the plan worked, where it did not, and if any changes need to be made. With the right plan very few changes need to be made.

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Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

That was BEFORE I had a good car under my arse. Bring it on now David!

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Vincent Keene
'06 Ford Mustang GT (track rat)
'15 Dodge Charger R/T (yeah, it's got a HEMI!)
'07 Ford Fusion SE (205,000 miles and counting)
'98 Chevy Z-24 (retired)
'93 Acura Integra (Team SWB 24HOL Car)

Thanks everyone for all the input on the school. I have had a ton of good suggestions on what to do for the format of the school. I still am not 100% set on what to do. I do know this, we will not be spreading out on opposite ends of the site, that alone should make it run smooth.

I will decide and send out an email hopefully tonight with a rough itenerary.

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02 Focus SVT
STF 9

Mike and I agree on something You should know how to handle a sweep, slaloms, offsets before you show up Saturday. As an instructor, I want my student(s) to walk away and never be surprised by a course or how their car felt on course.

You should walk away Saturday with the ability to tell me where you left time out on the course. You should be able to complete a run and identify where you hit it right and where you were off. If you can do that on your first run, then the next runs are always going to be faster and a lot more fun.

I cna tell you, after the first run if I have you by 1 -1.5 seconds, I got you beat for the day I am in your head at that point. If AX is 99% mental, that is a huge advantage.

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Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner