New Azenis Performance???

Keith Vail · **Posted:** Fri Aug 05, 2005 3:19 pm

Brian Herring wrote:

Overall, I think the Kooks are a much better tire, and that test did little to tell me which was best. The RT-215s finishing ahead of the Kooks on a consistent basis isnt going to happen, IMHO.

- brian

I have run the Hankooks on my WRX for a couple events this year and loved them. The turn in and overall feel is excellent. The breakaway was totally managable. I can't comment on overheating as I use a garden sprayer after all my runs to ensure they won't overheat. My experience might not be the best as my Kooks are shaved to 4/32nds and get mounted at the event and swapped for my Falkens before I leave.

Kevin Allen · **Joined:** Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:42 pm **Posts:** 3479

I've never had any experiences with STS tires "going off" or "getting greasy" after heating up. Maybe I'm just not good enough to be able to tell a difference, but I think all the talk about greasy hot tires is BS. If I was spending several thousand dollars on tire testing every year while trying to win a national championship, I might be able to actually tell a difference. But in my experience, the Azenis hasn't gotten any slower when it's almost too warm to put my hand on. My first track school at VIR was on Azenis RT215 on Saturday, Kumho MX on Sunday. Only difference was that the Azenis turned in quicker with the stiffer sidewalls. And this was a comparison of a tire that "gets greasy" vs. a tire that "likes heat" - :lol:

Kevin Allen · **Joined:** Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:42 pm **Posts:** 3479

Quote:

I can't comment on overheating as I use a garden sprayer after all my runs to ensure they won't overheat.

Just wanted to point out that if you're not FTPAXing by about a second (like Tom Hoppe was last year when he showed up to our events :oops:

) you're definitely wasting your time if you're doing this. (not just Keith, everybody) Even IF the spraying actually helped, it would only be good for maybe a few tenths on a 60-second course when driven by a national champion.

You'll get a lot better results out of sitting in the air-conditioned car between runs, relaxing & going over your last run in your head, then mentally making corrections while driving your next run in your head over and over and over, than you will by spraying water on your tires. :lol:

( I hope that run-on sentence actually made sense to somebody...)

Vincent Keene · **Posted:** Fri Aug 05, 2005 3:58 pm

Kevin Allen wrote:

Quote:

I can't comment on overheating as I use a garden sprayer after all my runs to ensure they won't overheat.

Just wanted to point out that if you're not FTPAXing by about a second (like Tom Hoppe was last year when he showed up to our events :oops:

) you're definitely wasting your time if you're doing this. (not just Keith, everybody)

I agree. On the CRX the heat they build is a good thing. Since when did cold tires work better than warm ones anyway?

Brian Herring · **Posted:** Fri Aug 05, 2005 4:04 pm

Kevin Allen wrote:

Quote:

I can't comment on overheating as I use a garden sprayer after all my runs to ensure they won't overheat.

Just wanted to point out that if you're not FTPAXing by about a second (like Tom Hoppe was last year when he showed up to our events :oops:

) you're definitely wasting your time if you're doing this. (not just Keith, everybody) Even IF the spraying actually helped, it would only be good for maybe a few tenths on a 60-second course when driven by a national champion.

You'll get a lot better results out of sitting in the air-conditioned car between runs, relaxing & going over your last run in your head, then mentally making corrections while driving your next run in your head over and over and over, than you will by spraying water on your tires. :lol:

( I hope that run-on sentence actually made sense to somebody...)

I'll make you a deal. You get to drive my car AFTER I have two runs. Even with my 'hack' style and your superior driving smoothness, I highly doubt you will be able to match my times from the first two runs.Enjoy the greasiness (put the air pressure to whatever you want to).

This is a fact, and I am not the only who has experience this in my car (as I co-drive). Whether or not you want to debate this point is up to you.

Have you run the RT-215s on your WRX? The RS doesn't have enough power or weight for me to qualify that into my RT-215 theory. I know with my WRX, I LOVED the RT-215s, but they are NOT the same *feel* on the STi, and they get progressively worse after every run.

Regardless, autoX + heavy&&torquey car == greasy RT-215s.

- brian

Whether or not *you* think that is BS, I am sure the fair share of STi drivers in this club can relate to my experience.

Brian Herring · **Posted:** Fri Aug 05, 2005 4:06 pm

Vincent Keene wrote:

Kevin Allen wrote:

Quote:

I can't comment on overheating as I use a garden sprayer after all my runs to ensure they won't overheat.

Just wanted to point out that if you're not FTPAXing by about a second (like Tom Hoppe was last year when he showed up to our events :oops:

) you're definitely wasting your time if you're doing this. (not just Keith, everybody)

I agree. On the CRX the heat they build is a good thing. Since when did cold tires work better than warm ones anyway?

When I drive my car. It is just the way Azenis 'act' for the way I drive them. More heat in the Azenis do NOT make them faster.

- brian

EDIT: ACK!! Getting off topic. I will refrain from posting IN THIS POST about non-RT 615 information.

Vincent Keene · **Posted:** Fri Aug 05, 2005 4:08 pm

Brian Herring wrote:

More heat in the Azenis do NOT make them faster.

Of course there is a point of diminishing returns, but are you saying that a warm tire (not overheated) isn't as fast as a cold one? :roll:

Brian Herring · **Posted:** Fri Aug 05, 2005 4:17 pm

Vincent Keene wrote:

Brian Herring wrote:

More heat in the Azenis do NOT make them faster.

Of course there is a point of diminishing returns, but are you saying that a warm tire (not overheated) isn't as fast as a cold one? :roll:

Does not help if the tire's core temp is already close to 'overheat' that during the run, it passes it's effective temperature, as opposed to the first run where it doesn't quite reach that temperature.

In that case, yes, a cold tire IS faster than a 'warm' one. That is my *experience* with two sets of RT-215s on two seperate cars.

:: awaiting name change/more THSCC ridicule::

I am done with this post.

- brian

Keith Vail · **Posted:** Fri Aug 05, 2005 4:18 pm

I don't want to stay off topic but I do want to defend myself. When I wasn't spraying my tires off after each run on my BF Goodrich's earlier this season my tires would get very greasy and unpredictable by my fourth run of the day. I found this at several events. Yes I am aware it was probably my driving wasn't smooth enough. My driving didn't get really smooth till my last couple events with the car once its handling was more to my liking using a different setup. This I can tell from all the video footage I have of my runs this year. Just my two cents. Just as Brian stated above, if the tire doesn't cool down enough between runs it can overheat during the run more easily.

Rich Anderson · **Posted:** Fri Aug 05, 2005 4:22 pm

Has no one taken tire temperatures to be able to move this from a discussion of theory and feel to one of actual data?

Vincent Keene · **Posted:** Fri Aug 05, 2005 4:23 pm

Keith Vail wrote:

Just as Brian stated above, if the tire doesn't cool down enough between runs it can overheat during the run more easily.

So Keith Q., Kevin A. and myself can't overheat them (RT-215s) in a 30 minute continious track session with speeds over 100 MPH, but you can in a 45 sec AX run?

Keith Vail · **Posted:** Fri Aug 05, 2005 4:28 pm

Vincent Keene wrote:

Keith Vail wrote:

Just as Brian stated above, if the tire doesn't cool down enough between runs it can overheat during the run more easily.

So Keith Q., Kevin A. and myself can't overheat them (RT-215s) in a 30 minute continious track session with speeds over 100 MPH, but you can in a 45 sec AX run?

I am not running RT-215's. I was just talking about heavy cars with street tires. I guess it just means I am that bad of a driver, if I can overheat tires in a 45 second auto-x run. Yes i did take temps at one event with my spraying my tires down. The temps was about 170 degrees after two runs. It burnt my hand when I got out of the car and touched the tire.

Scott Johnson · **Posted:** Fri Aug 05, 2005 4:38 pm

I've been autocrossing a lot longer than all these AWD hacks have, and find that my light weight, good cambered, stock car can overheated street tires and a noticible *negative* impact in their performance.

Do I have tire temps to tell me? Nope, but the seat of my pants certainly tells me it's so.

I would spray my Azenis RT-215's between runs and felt that it made a significant difference. Unlike Kevin, I believe it would help a novice as well (maybe even more - they are more likely to do dumb things and overheat their tires).

Maybe I just suck like those other "slow" AWD guys. Hey, maybe it's contageous? You guys stay away from me OK?

Scott

PS: Last time I checked, there was a big difference between track and autocross. If memory serves correct, tracks tend to have much larger diameter turns, with a greater distance between them. Do I really need to explain why this makes a difference?

MarcusMcRae · **Posted:** Fri Aug 05, 2005 4:50 pm

Keith Vail wrote:

Brian Herring wrote:

Overall, I think the Kooks are a much better tire, and that test did little to tell me which was best. The RT-215s finishing ahead of the Kooks on a consistent basis isnt going to happen, IMHO.

- brian

I have run the Hankooks on my WRX for a couple events this year and loved them. The turn in and overall feel is excellent. The breakaway was totally managable. I can't comment on overheating as I use a garden sprayer after all my runs to ensure they won't overheat. My experience might not be the best as my Kooks are shaved to 4/32nds and get mounted at the event and swapped for my Falkens before I leave.

I used the hankooks for the first time in danville. The ultimate grip is just as good as the rt 215 and turn is equal too. The only area I felt they were lacking was in the big sweeper. I could feel some tread squirm when I was trying to reposition the car. The hankooks also require a lot less tire pressure.

If falken made any improvement with overheating department the rt615 seems like the obvious choice. I got the Hankooks because they were cheap and I wanted to try something different.

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Fri Aug 05, 2005 5:16 pm

Vincent Keene wrote:

Keith Vail wrote:

Just as Brian stated above, if the tire doesn't cool down enough between runs it can overheat during the run more easily.

So Keith Q., Kevin A. and myself can't overheat them (RT-215s) in a 30 minute continious track session with speeds over 100 MPH, but you can in a 45 sec AX run?

Could it be that maybe on track they get past their peak grip level VERY quick, so that for the rest of the 30 minute session the grip level has stabilized so they seem pretty consistent???

I don't know how much of the "spray the RT-215" is mental and how much is for real. I personally think it is about 50/50. I "think" I can notice the difference. On really hot days later runs they just didn't seem as "crisp" to me. Maybe I am noticing something real or maybe it is my imagination. Regardless, back when I was running the RT-215, if I forgot my sprayer at home, I didn't freak or anything as I don’t think the difference between the “greasy” and “optimal” RT-215 is that huge.

So, if you think the spraying works for you, keep at it. I do think there is a mental component of this for some people. That if they don't spray down their tires they ARE going to drive worse.

Most of this discussion about the RT-215 is a moot point. Can you really get the tire anymore?? If so, for how long?? I also am a big fan of the FK-451. Mostly because it is cheap, comes in a bunch of sizes, has decent grip AND it has worked well for me this year. But if they made the RT-615 in the size I wanted, I would probably buy it over the FK-451.

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