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 Post subject: One Novice's comments on the new NOV season class
PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 12:29 am 
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Got Powah?
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Let's keep this nice now... :) Is Roger on here? You have some valid points, even if they didn't quite come out on the HT thread.

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1312065

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 8:35 am 
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You're just jealous

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Way back when I started (before many Tarheelers were even born let alone driving) the Northern California Sports Car Council had a "showroom stock" type class structure which lumped several normal classes together. Its "intent" as stated in the rule book was to be a place for newcomers. Guess what, the class winning car in one of the classes was a Lotus Europa on the trickest tires of the day driven by a very experienced and talented driver. As I recall, Kelly (my wife now), who had a brand new Lotus Europa as her ONLY car started in the Ladies version of that class and had to run against the very experienced and talented wife of the car owning family. Guess what? Kelly used it as a challenge to learn how to drive . . . and got rather quick! FYI my Datsun 260Z was probably in the same class . . . like I had a chance . . . but I got hooked anyway.

Moral of the story: Novice is simply a way to "sort of compare" yourself with other rookies. It is not intended or able to be a "real" class (any class that uses PAX to compare classes is NOT REAL :D ). What actually works is to find people and cars that are comparable to you and your car and then guage yourself and your progress against them as part of your "self analysis". What really counts is how you do against the talented drivers anyway.

Dick (who went to his first Nationals to see how he compared to the rest of the country's top drivers in his class rather than "just" other Californians)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 8:39 am 
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I said my peace.

Disclaimer: STX racers be warned next year...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 10:04 am 
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At Danville PJ came out to help with setup, then swapped ride-alongs with the AWD hack course designer on Sunday. All arranged by pm several days before the event took place. This is the same thing I was doing when I started autoxing. If the pattern continues, maybe next year he'll go from winning Novice class to beating X class...

:twisted:

The less effort you put into something, the less you should expect to get out of it.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 10:47 am 
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Kevin Allen wrote:
If the pattern continues, maybe next year he'll go from winning Novice class to beating X class...

:twisted:

The less effort you put into something, the less you should expect to get out of it.


Hypothetically, it would've been a 4th out of 8 entries in Pro. Not too shabby... :thumbsup:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 12:22 pm 
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Ah yes, the year long novice class....about on the same level as an awning for the bus. Actually, I think this is the worst idea out of this club in a long time.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 12:50 pm 
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i love seeing these nov class discussions. and they all sound the same. apparently there is some old school stigma attached that believes one is not a "real" autoX'er untill they win a nov event and get kicked up to the bigs. spare me. massive ego is what causes a nov to quit running nov class not race tires or trailers. the boy couldn't handle being beat by senior citizens, women and a station wagon. not to mention Rob & PJ.
if anything, being thrown to the wolves after winning one nov event would seem to me to be frustrating. call me a noob, call me a novice, whatever. just don't forget to call me when the beer is cold, and the food is served.

oh, and would someone get Dobner to put a THSCC sticker on the grocery getter please. talk about intimidating the other clubs. awesome.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 1:25 pm 
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You, me, and Dan Durusky started out in the bottom five of novice at Laurinburg. The nice thing about starting out in the basement is you've got nowhere to go but up.

Anyway, I'd always thought SM was more of a fun class for gearheads where you didn't have to worry about what you could and couldn't do to your car than a seriously competitive one.
rmcdaniels wrote:
I should have just run in SM, I'd have had a better chance at a trophy.
Well, there is a Triad event tomorrow. I hear they have nice trophies.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 1:54 pm 
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steve remchak wrote:
just don't forget to call me when the beer is cold, and the food is served.


Can I get an AMEN...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 8:34 pm 
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i've been having a blast in novice class. i think allowing it to run all season gives the ppl in it time to get to know their competition, make it nice and personal, and then have fun racing!

as far as race tires, i personally have them because i bought a used set of wheels and they guy threw them in with the wheels! i'm not about to pass up some decent free tires. although i must say i wish i didnt have them because i dont think i'm utilizing them properly or something, because i'm not much faster than i was really and the pax is killing me. ill be back on street tires when these die.

i say stay in novice and compete as best you can, its a fun class i think. and hey its just a year and its the only time youll ever be able to do it. soak it up


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 8:54 pm 
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wow :shock: pretty crazy to have people talking about me in a honda forum.
my thoughts on nOvice class:

-This really is my first year doing this, hell I just got the car in december, before that I was driving a Plymouth Acclaim. I have always loved anything and everything about cars. The guys and gals in Tarheel are great, its a great chance to make friends and talk about cars. I dont know if Roger knows who I am but I did come up to his car and admired his engineering and talked with him about it.
-This discussion has been brought up before, I considered leaving novice class but many seasoned club members said hey its year long so why not?
-It is nice to have a large class to run against, there usually arent many people running STX, one of them usually being Kevin Allen(ive got nothing on him :D )
-The class is a good chance to get to know your competitors. I talk with Rob and Joe at every event. I recently talked with Lucas for a while at Danville.
-Now Rob and I are in a bit of a points "battle" its fun having friendly competition, not to mention its cool to have a VW and an M3 in such a close race.
-The reason I bought autoX tires is because I wanted my street tires to last longer, 18s are expensive! and they are still technically street tires (Azenis)
-And to address Donna's comment about the mentor program, I did attend the Novice school in L'burg. And I did contact Kevin BEFORE the Danville event to see if he could help me.

Its our first year, why not run together??

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 10:41 pm 
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I have no issue with the participants running in Novice and buying race tires ... who would have ever thought it would come to that though. I have an issue with the leadership ruining a perfectly good novice program.

What do you tell the people starting out in July, August or September? They can not run for the season long trophy, they are competing against people that have one class and 5-6 events under their belts and race tires. Boy, that sure sounds fair to everyone except those that started after April.

My first event was 5 years ago this past July. So I would have been screwed by this novice program.

My advice to these "novices", get some balls and let the other new people have their day in the sun.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 1:53 am 
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jimpastorius wrote:
My advice to these "novices", get some balls and let the other new people have their day in the sun.


WOW Jim.....I'm sure the ladies in Novice (Gwen, Vicki, Rebecca, Kate, Judi, Lisa, Beth, and Leslie) really appreciate this useful advice, especially coming from such a senior member. Perhaps you can tell them where one might go to get the "balls" that you advocate.
You really put a lot of effort into your performance at the autox events (except for the 3 runs in the M-Roadster at the Novice school :) ). Not sure why you can't do the same with your posts here on the forums. (WUWT?)

I will go on record and say that my balls :drunkin: have never influenced my driving at an autox event.

jimpastorius wrote:
I have an issue with the leadership ruining a perfectly good novice program.


I can respect this statement if you will constructively show what has changed that "ruins" the novice program. If the only bad thing is that people coming to events later in the season might not come back because they didn't do well against other drivers that started back in March, I personally see that as having unrealistic expectations, NOT that the leadership ruined a good novice program.

Background
I bought my M3 in Oct of 2004. Prior to that, I drove a Nissan 2WD pickup (for 10 years to be exact). I've never owned any type of sports car prior to the M3. I bought the M3 based on the recommendation of a very good friend of mine (and a club sponsor) Chip Stabler, who I have watched race with the SCCA for the past couple of years. I told Chip that I wanted to start racing with the SCCA and he told me (based on the fact that I had no experience) that I should really spend a few years doing autocross, work in a few HPDEs, and then consider SCCA Club racing. As a matter of fact, he made me promise him that I wouldn't take the M3 and go straight to road course racing. I didn't know much about autocross. The little bit I knew was thanks to Mark Musser and the pictures he had posted at work. So, a week and a half after I bought the car, Mark talked me into going to the Laurinburg event (Oct 2004). He told me to ride with him on his first 2 runs. I thought I was going to crap on myself during his first run. I had no idea the sport was anywhere near that intense. I made it through the day thanks to a lot of help from Mark (3 out of 5 runs where DNF and after PAX, I finished 3 secs behind the 1st place in Novice). That in no way discouraged me, it made me focus on what I had learned from the experience and what I could do to improve my performance. The only discouraging thing was that it was the last event of the season and I had to wait until Mar'05 for the Novice school and the next event.

Why use race tires?
I'm fortunate that I get to attend lunch with several of the club members every Wed in RTP. I quickly started asking questions about the rules and things that I could do to my car (realize that I'm an electrical eng by degree and working on a car is all new to me). I told the guys that I drive my car to work everyday so I had planned on having a different set of tires for autox. I had planned on getting Azenis, but Keith Q said that if I was going to have a dedicated set of tires for autox and I didn't mind changing tires at the event, I should get R-compound (and that's what I did). I had no idea that this would actually cause people in the club to question my intentions (novices aren't suppose to be on race tires). I didn't even know what R-compound tires where until I joined the club and started eating lunch with these guys and talking about car setup. Why not take advantage of something that is legal for my class?

Why stay in Novice?
- First (and this isn't an excuse), it's what I was told to do. Remember, I'm new to this and have no idea how it's been run in the past. Now that I've made it through 5 events, I've considered moving into BS, but (call me selfish) I can't see an advantage. Out of 5 events, there was 1 BS entry at Sanford and 1 BS entry at Danville (no entries at the other events). Let's see, drive in a class with maybe 1 other entry or drive against a class of (on avg) 30 entries.
- Second, if I move to BS after 4 events, I would have next to no chance at competing for a season long trophy unless I'm the only one running BS and where's the satisfaction in that? PJ and I are neck and neck in the points for Novice class this year and it's a blast. It's only for one season. Who knows if I will ever get to compete in the same class with most of these guys/gals in the future. This has actually caused us to develop a friendship that may not have occurred if we did compete against each other in Novice. I'm sure some will say, but it's a Novice class, does it really mean anything to win a season long points event for that class? DUH...if you are new (i.e. a Novice or rookie to this sport) it sure as hell does.

If there is a negative to staying in Novice for the season, it's the fact that I can't ride along with these guys/gals. I do fully respect the reason and rational for why this rule exists. The first event that I run as a non-Novice entry, I plan on jumping in the car with about 1/2 of the people that are currently running as Novice (and hope they do the same with me).

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 7:21 am 
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Rookie phenom
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Quote:
Why stay in Novice?
- First (and this isn't an excuse), it's what I was told to do.


There is the problem. I am saying you should not stay in Novice after three events or getting a trophy. I would love to hear the justification that people are using to tell you this. It makes no sense at all that you are being fed this stuff. I understand you are just following orders. My "balls" statement was over the top and I apologize to you and the others for it.

That is great you get to compete with PJ and I am quite happy for you guys.

But I am not happy for all the other novices that come out to our events and have no chance to compete for their first trophy. There have been a number of people of the years that have and are working their tails off to try and bump our novice retention rate above the 10%. I see this as a major set back.

If you and PJ had moved into open (or tire) class after the first event (in large part due to attending the excellant novice school Rick and I conducted), how many other novices would have had a chance to step up and get their trophy and acknowledgement?

How do you propose we handle novices that come out to Danville or any of the other remaining 3 events? Do they get to run the novice class next year? So a person starting out at the very first event in 2006 novice will be running against people with 3 events under their belts. A nasty web we have woven.

Hey, I had the same position about this novice class when it was mentioned on this forum as a possibility.

Question, do you still attend the novice meeting and novice course walks?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 8:50 am 
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You're just jealous

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What is the big deal about "being able to win a Novice Class Trophy"?

I thought the whole idea of our Novice program was to help newbies understand how events work and what the sport is all about.

What it is about (other than the social aspects) is driving as well as possible in competition against skilled drivers.

What is the value of getting a trophy for being the "fastest (per PAX) unskilled driver in a less than fully prepared car that may be the wrong car for the class"?

Heck, it would seem to me that the sooner a novice realizes that THEY are the key to how well they drive and the CAR is also rather important the better off they will be.

If folks need a sport where unskilled folk with the wrong equipment can be competitive there is always Golf with its individual handicaps. Car competition is Heads Up and Novices might as well get used to it immediately.

Maybe I'm weird (maybe?) but when I started a few decades ago I competed heads up with some of the best autocrossers in the country. I found this to be a heck of a motivator to both learn how to drive and learn how to prepare a car.

FYI I think we should encourage Novices to get the best tires for their class ASAP. How else will they be able to judge their driving progress and begin to understand the "finances" of the sport? Of course, I may be prejudiced since I jumped to the best possible tires (racing slicks in one class I ran that year) in my first full season. Worked for me.

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