One Novice's comments on the new NOV season class

Brad Mackey · **Posted:** Mon Jul 25, 2005 11:16 am

David, I agree:
Everyone should have a voice in what the Club does. BUT it's a fact of life that decisions are made by those who are willing to get involved as Club officers. I'm not in that position.

I'm willing to play by whatever rules are put in place by the Autocross V.P.'s and other officers. They're the ones spending their time arranging our events and making things fun for everyone.

I have opinions and put in my $.02 once in a while, but at the end of the day, I feel that if Holton, Keene, Mauldin et al are willing to step up and run things for a while, they have the right to try out their ideas. Hell, when all the smoke clears, the tweaking we do each year keeps things interesting, at least!

Graham Jagger · **Joined:** Fri Aug 29, 2003 12:53 am **Posts:** 1718

From one of the Novice Coordinators perspective.

We had planned on requesting a seperate area for Novices to discuss and ask questions. But it would still be subject to non-Novice people being involved to answer them. We also talked about making a few stickies in it that point back to thscc.com under the Autocross section. It appears many Novices quickly find the Autocross button immediately followed by the Registration tab. They register for an event and leave the website. Many are not reading the FAQs that are also right there in front of them. So a lot of basic questions would be answered if people would actually take the time to read them. So I'm all for a Novice area and would volunteer to help moderate it. I'm sure Rob would too.

As far as the year long Novice thing. At the beggining of the season Rob and I suggested a number of options to the program. All but 1 were dismissed because they caused changes in T&S. At the time the new AXware was going to be implemented. So anything that caused additional problems to T&S were tabled. Not removed. So there are some options that could be used next year should we continue to run year long Novice.

The one thing we did agree on that Rob and I were adamant about was that we kept Rookie of the Year seperate. So winning Novice points for the year means you win a class points like any other. It does not guarantee you get ROY. So that concept of what ROY is remains. Driving well and helping the club .vs. winning your class.

Rob and I had planned on putting together a survey and sending it out to all Novices that we could get an email address for and requesting they fill it out and add any comments they like. We would do it "anonymously" and post consolidated results with no names. That way Novices would be protected from saying what was on their minds and getting beat up on the forum. The forum is not the best place to get that feedback. We are still planning to do this. But it will be at the end of the season. Not mid-season.

Other than a few Novices who have been willing to jump in on this thread. We are by no means getting the amount of feedback needed from the people actually involved to make any descisions on its success.

So far I think we have a good discourse going. But let's not try and slant the Novices opinion of this program, or worse, tell them their opinion.

Graham

Ryan Holton · **Posted:** Mon Jul 25, 2005 11:48 am

jimpastorius wrote:

The old saying about glass houses...some people are jumping classes cause they are getting their butts handed to them in a sling.

Whats that got to do with the price of tea in China?

Please stick to the subject, you can attack me in PM's if you want.

Brian Herring · **Posted:** Mon Jul 25, 2005 11:55 am

Ryan Holton wrote:

jimpastorius wrote:

The old saying about glass houses...some people are jumping classes cause they are getting their butts handed to them in a sling.

Whats that got to do with the price of tea in China?

Please stick to the subject, you can attack me in PM's if you want.

PM sent!

In summation, I do not think that you can ever make ANY supplimentary class 'even' or 'fair for all' unless you want to deal with the headache of increased rule overhead and NOV orientation.

THSCC is giving you a sandbox to start in and get a taste of a full season. If you want to keep the pacifier, you take the good and the bad that comes with it. Not everyone is going to win. If we want to make it the duty of the NOV coordinators and techs to ensure the NOVs dont have RACE TIRES, that is a motion that needs to be passed via the club AT a meeting.

Honestly, I think what Mr. Pastorous is doing it really noble in aim, but it is just too complex and time consuming to carry out.

- brian

Vincent Keene · **Posted:** Mon Jul 25, 2005 12:13 pm

Brad Mackey wrote:

I have opinions and put in my $.02 once in a while, but at the end of the day, I feel that if Holton, Keene, Mauldin et al are willing to step up and run things for a while, they have the right to try out their ideas. Hell, when all the smoke clears, the tweaking we do each year keeps things interesting, at least!

Thank you Brad! Everything is easier playing Monday morning QB than actually running the show on Sundays.

Just like any political arena, THSCC officers are voted in and out every year. If you don't like the ways things are being run, cast your vote accordingly for the candidate(s) of your choice in 2006. Better yet, run for office, but keep a copy of all your complaints from 2005 to help your memory in 2006.

jimpastorius · **Posted:** Mon Jul 25, 2005 12:15 pm

Ryan Holton wrote:

jimpastorius wrote:

The old saying about glass houses...some people are jumping classes cause they are getting their butts handed to them in a sling.

Whats that got to do with the price of tea in China?

Please stick to the subject, you can attack me in PM's if you want.

Quote:

Ryan Holton wrote:

While I agree with one post on one (very popular) board made it look terrible. However if you break down what the guy in the post said, 90% was totally untrue. The poster, who has many thousands of dollars tied up in his maddd tite Honduh, got pimp slapped by a K car station wagon! Methinks his ego was a little hurt and this was just him lashing out. Must we worry about what every person on every board posts about THSCC?

I felt that was a cheap shot...at the kid, thus the glass house comment. I am not sure where you got 90% from...must be a number thing again that a simple boy like me can't figure out.

His observations appear pretty right on considering his level of experience. There are no exaggerations or lies in those observations. He posted a pretty good question out there and sought some feedback.

Kind of the arrogance that goes around...someone disagrees and we can slam his ride and talent? If people want to dis others, then they need to be able to take it on the chin too.

The price of tea in China is currently $4 a pound (that is joke, I have no idea what the actual price is. so let's not start a thread on how far Jim is off the priceof tea in China)

Vincent Keene · **Posted:** Mon Jul 25, 2005 12:17 pm

Graham Jagger wrote:

They register for an event and leave the website. Many are not reading the FAQs that are also right there in front of them. So a lot of basic questions would be answered if people would actually take the time to read them.

So, so true. This was a problem last year when I was in one of the NC spots. Most (not all) Novices show up late and unprepared. They don't read the FAQ or every try to find out more about AX before an event.

Doing your homework pays!

Wes Eargle · **Joined:** Mon Oct 27, 2003 9:47 am **Posts:** 3683

jimpastorius wrote:

The price of tea in China is currently $4 a pound (that is joke, I have no idea what the actual price is. so let's not start a thread on how far Jim is off the priceof tea in China)

silly n00b.

http://asiachi.com/tea.html has Monkey Pick Ti Kuan Yin Tea (my personal fave) for $17.99 for a 0.65 lb can.

David Teague · **Posted:** Mon Jul 25, 2005 12:29 pm

jimpastorius wrote:

If people want to dis others, then they need to be able to take it on the chin too.

Mr. Kettle meet Mr. Pot

jimpastorius · **Posted:** Mon Jul 25, 2005 12:36 pm

David Teague wrote:

jimpastorius wrote:

If people want to dis others, then they need to be able to take it on the chin too.

Mr. Kettle meet Mr. Pot

David, I take it on the chin in every one your posts. You'd think I stole your wife or something

Graham Jagger · **Joined:** Fri Aug 29, 2003 12:53 am **Posts:** 1718

Brian Herring wrote:

I notice that we had been doing a NOVICE mentor program. How does one get to be apart of helping with that program?

I ask as I would not be good help for someone trying to drive a RWD/FWD car, but I would not mind he 'officially' tapped to help the up-and-coming THSCC AWD Hacks. I have been pretty much doing this anyway, but I noticed some new WRX/RS guys at the last event. It would have been nice to be a 'reference' if they needed advice.

We seem to have been doing this ADHOC at events, but I would not mind be apart of that full-time in that respect (if help is needed).

Lemme know who I need to contact!

- brian

You've already made contact. And now you're signed up. This program falls under the Nov Coords. Rob and I made up a list of people who we contacted at the beggining of the season. We haven't updated it. We'll review it to see who else we can add. So far we have a somewhat limited response. We're working on that. So while it seems adhoc to you we just don't have this nice formalized program in place, yet...

We'd be glad to have you help out! All the AWD hack jokes aside. You're a good driver. Personally I don't see it as an AWD thing and that you can only help an AWD driver. I wish you would rethink that and just let us assign you to any Novice that needs help. Here's why.

That Novice who is showing up for the first time. They really don't care what wheels drive your car, neither do I. Their first questions in the morning usually revolve around.

A/ What in the Heck is going on here?
B/ Ok so this Grid A/B, Drive 1/3, Work 2 or 4 thing. I don't get it. Can you say it slowly with pictures :wink:

C/ Ok so the cone rule thing I'm a little confused?
D/ They said the turnaround is optional. Oh, so can I skip it?

Then you get in the car with them.

A/ So can I go now? No, wait til the Grid worker tells you.
B/ Ok so you know where the course is right? Maybe...
C/ Ok so more gas, now brake, now left (no you're other left) :wink:

While I'm joking a bit here. What you can do to help teaching basic skills is not car specific. Knowing all the tricks of AWD cars is not what you need to teach a Novice. That gets into Intermediate drivers. Just get them to stay on course, not clobber everything in sight, and get a feel for what it is about. Help build their understanding and confidence. That is an immense help.

I'll gladly take all you AWD folks to help anytime, even Kevin... :wink:

Graham

Rich Anderson · **Posted:** Mon Jul 25, 2005 12:50 pm

Wes Eargle wrote:

jimpastorius wrote:

The price of tea in China is currently $4 a pound (that is joke, I have no idea what the actual price is. so let's not start a thread on how far Jim is off the priceof tea in China)

silly n00b.

http://asiachi.com/tea.html has Monkey Pick Ti Kuan Yin Tea (my personal fave) for $17.99 for a 0.65 lb can.

Yeah, but on a future, it goes for about $1.70 per kilo or about $0.77 per pound.

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Mon Jul 25, 2005 12:59 pm

A couple of thoughts…

I will second Chris Brown’s comments that any Novice reading this should do whatever they feel is best for them including doing what they have been doing and that is running in “Novice” for the remainder of the year. Don’t let anyone guilt you out of the class. Do this for fun and if you are having fun in Novice then continue to do so. Move to open when you want or the rules force you to do so.

This thread reminds me of the Evo School email list. In the Evo list, it comes in the form of complaints about car classing changes. While well meaning, you end up with a bunch of people who "know how to do it correctly", but don’t take the next step to try to make it happen. On the Evo list that generally is resolved when someone points out that no matter how much you bitch in a public forum, it doesn’t mean a thing until you email the proper people in the SCCA. I don’t know exactly how this works in THSCC, but I suspect that if you want things to work differently, then you have to step up to make the changes. Otherwise, it is just a bunch of talk that pushes people’s buttons. <= (This last comment is not directed at anyone in particular as I am as guilty at times as others.)

With that being said, and in the spirit of this thread, I will offer up my solution to Novice without actually doing anything to actually put it in place! :lol:

(see I said I was just as guilty as others).

This is a variation of a solution to PRO, TIR and NOV issues I mentioned before.

1. All entrants are entered into Open class. All cars run with Open class designation (No PRO/X, TIR, LAD or NOV designation on cars)
2. Optionally if you fit the NOV, TIR, LAD or PRO/X “definition” you can be included in those indexed results.
3. Per event awards would be given to winners in each class. Any optional class is an “indexed” class that would be listed in addition to the overall indexed and open class results. So because we are adding additional indexed classes that awards will be given out for, you can win multiple awards at a single event. So if you are a kick ass female novice on street tires, you would win Open, PRO, TIR, LAD and NOV at the same event in a single class.
4. One variation would be to pull out PRO/X class out of the Open class results.
5. Definitions for what makes you a “Novice” as well as the inclusion of year long awards for something other than normal open class points would be a separate discussion. Other year long awards could be things such as “Overall PAX”, “Novice” and/or “Rookie of the year”.

The reasons I don’t think this will work are…

1. T&S would need to be able to track not just what the Open class was for a car, but if they optionally were in the “TIR”, “PRO”, “NOV”, etc. index classes as well. I am guessing that current software (as well as anything on the market), probably could not do what I am suggesting.
2. Registration would need the same thing.
3. This would give out more awards than we do currently and there is (from what I can tell), many people who would not be in favor of giving out more of what they would call “meaningless” awards. In other words, awards for tasks that is not difficult to achieve. I personally don’t feel that way.
4. It is radically different from what we do today and maybe even from many other clubs.
5. Potential impact on LAD class is a touchy subject.
6. This means adding more indexed results. As we all know “PAX Sucks!” (I need to get a trademark on that phrase and sell T-shirts).

Brian Herring · **Posted:** Mon Jul 25, 2005 1:52 pm

Graham Jagger wrote:

Brian Herring wrote:

I notice that we had been doing a NOVICE mentor program. How does one get to be apart of helping with that program?

I ask as I would not be good help for someone trying to drive a RWD/FWD car, but I would not mind he 'officially' tapped to help the up-and-coming THSCC AWD Hacks. I have been pretty much doing this anyway, but I noticed some new WRX/RS guys at the last event. It would have been nice to be a 'reference' if they needed advice.

We seem to have been doing this ADHOC at events, but I would not mind be apart of that full-time in that respect (if help is needed).

Lemme know who I need to contact!

- brian

You've already made contact. And now you're signed up. This program falls under the Nov Coords. Rob and I made up a list of people who we contacted at the beggining of the season. We haven't updated it. We'll review it to see who else we can add. So far we have a somewhat limited response. We're working on that. So while it seems adhoc to you we just don't have this nice formalized program in place, yet...

We'd be glad to have you help out! All the AWD hack jokes aside. You're a good driver. Personally I don't see it as an AWD thing and that you can only help an AWD driver. I wish you would rethink that and just let us assign you to any Novice that needs help. Here's why.

That Novice who is showing up for the first time. They really don't care what wheels drive your car, neither do I. Their first questions in the morning usually revolve around.

A/ What in the Heck is going on here?
B/ Ok so this Grid A/B, Drive 1/3, Work 2 or 4 thing. I don't get it. Can you say it slowly with pictures :wink:

C/ Ok so the cone rule thing I'm a little confused?
D/ They said the turnaround is optional. Oh, so can I skip it?

Then you get in the car with them.

A/ So can I go now? No, wait til the Grid worker tells you.
B/ Ok so you know where the course is right? Maybe...
C/ Ok so more gas, now brake, now left (no you're other left) :wink:

While I'm joking a bit here. What you can do to help teaching basic skills is not car specific. Knowing all the tricks of AWD cars is not what you need to teach a Novice. That gets into Intermediate drivers. Just get them to stay on course, not clobber everything in sight, and get a feel for what it is about. Help build their understanding and confidence. That is an immense help.

I'll gladly take all you AWD folks to help anytime, even Kevin... :wink:

Graham

I have been helping any and everyone I could find anyway. I might as well get a fancy title or my name written down somewhere so I can use it as justification for JA behavior in the future.

Just send whomever my way. I don't mind helping anyone anyway. You will just know who I can help *best*.

One more step towards elistism.

Oh, and the awning thread is coming... bwhahahha.

- brian

Ryan Holton · **Posted:** Mon Jul 25, 2005 2:03 pm

jimpastorius wrote:

I felt that was a cheap shot...at the kid, thus the glass house comment. I am not sure where you got 90% from...must be a number thing again that a simple boy like me can't figure out.

What I said was not a slam at the driver or his car. I call my car a "madd tite Honduhhh" all the time. Its called a joke, I make them all the time, even at myself. I also didnt say anything that OTHERS didnt say in a PUBLIC forum. I havent seen you slam them.

disenfranchised Novice wrote:

most of the Novice cars had track tires on them (I just have street tires), many of the Novice cars were trailered in (I'm running the DD)

Thats the part that was 90% wrong, we have 1 Novice that trailers his car, and 2 (I think) on R comps. Thats not most no matter where you live.[/quote]

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