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Well good for you PJ. You did attend the novice school, I was there. You've seen that one school is only a start. Working with Kevin continues that. You made some good choices, it shows in your performance. I have to ask though...were you feeling guilty reading my post that you felt you needed to address it? Or did you feel you needed to answer it only because you compete in novice class? Just curious.

There were other novices there at that school too. But even some of the rest of the novices from the school aren't taking advantage of their resources. It's good that you've found a good instructor to work with you. Many in your class have not and do not...those are the people that I'm referring to in my thread. They know who they are. And like I said in my thread...I could just let it go....ignore it....let them take their bumps/lumps by themselves. But if what I posted makes just one of them realize that they're shorting themselves and they accept help or ask for it, then I've accomplished something.

Instructors/Mentors are devoting their time, effort (and even shade time right now ) to help. When we may have rushed to get ourselves, our cars, our walks, our minds ready to set aside time to instruct and we find you wherever you are and you then say "Oh I don't need any help. I'm fine. I know what I need to do." Well it's disappointing at the very least. And we could be spending that time helping someone who wants our instruction. If you're a novice and you truly don't want any help, you think that in your first year that you're that good, fine. Make the powers that be aware that you feel that way, and consider no longer running in novice class. Then the instructors won't bother you at all unless you specifically ask. In the meantime, we'll just have to be sure that we know who wants help and who will not. I suppose a lot of that is now up to Graham and Rob in the Mentor Program.

"Why not run together." Maybe the other novices noticed your performance this past weekend and are now reconsidering their choices. Maybe you posting that you have found an instructor/mentor that you're working with will make a difference too.

PJ you are probably going to have to get used to the other people in your class feeling a bit jeolous of your performance. I know that some do feel that way, however this is exactly my point. Don't complain how you did if you're not allowing yourself every advantage available to you especially instruction or critique. (And by the way, I think I can speak for all instructors here in this case, instructing is an extememly rewarding experience. That's why it's so disappointing when it's turned away.)

That is if your intent to be competive. If not, then just go out and have fun and don't worry about now you finish.
Now that's enough out of me. The rest is up to you all.

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GO FOR IT! BELIEVE IN YOURSELF.

For Novices that use their car as a daily driver, I think there is a benefit to running on stock tires. Trophying aside, there is value to knowing how your car acts/reacts to certain inputs without Rcomps masking some handling aspects.

I'm running OEM tires in a class that probably has a lot of folks running Rcomps. I just view it as more incentive to drive better in order to compete. For this year, anyway.

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Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder.

If there is anything that I have learned in doing this, there is no 100% rule. Someone will be left out or overlooked. We try our hardest but it happens

I also fail to remember all the chains and whips at the first event hearding the Novices in the Novice class.



Looking back at the archives of past years, the spread from first to worst in Novice class hasnt changed this. People were getting beat like an old shoe in the old system as well, anywhere from 7-27 seconds under the old system, just like this year. Sorry Jim the song remains the same.

Also a quick check of the numbers indicate that 7 Novices from the first event in Laurinburg have ran every subsequent event with THSCC. That 26% of the class. 8 more have entered 3-4 events this year. Thats a return (from the first event) of a whopping 55.5%.

I guess im just a dumb ole' bumpkin' from down east that just dont get it. I look at the numbers and see a sucess. I read posts from competitors that run in Novice that say that like it. The numbers (which cant be spun) just do not seem to support your position Jim. Please show me the information that supports your thoughts that the current management is in your words "ruining a perfectly good novice program."

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02 Focus SVT
STF 9

i personally was excused from the Danville novice meeting. while i welcomed the time to get ready, i did not get the course walk with the coordinators. i did get one walk with Jim. thanks Jim.

as i see it both sides have a viable arguement. but what i see as not being mentioned so much is next season. Jim has started that debate and more than anything i believe we need to get some things resolved that are bound to occur next season.

i have noticed that we have novice "raiders" so to speak attending our events. my guess is they have been entering events as a novice for several seasons only attending 3 or 4 events. the first event at L'burg saw at least one of these individuals trophy in nov (top 5). however, i do not believe he has trophied since. these guys are likely to become frustrated due to season long nov class because they are in it for the trophy. the "lets go whip up on some noobies" theory. these are the guys we need to get to step up and grow a set. Mr. Green Wheels was at Danville incognito. does he get to run nov next year? by my count that would be his third season in novice. (he was at sanford last season)

i do not envy the officers as this is potentially a sticky situation. at registration we can not say "dude you have too many events change classes". but, the novice coordinators might be able to push the issue. when the novice meeting is announced all novices should be required to report. then dismiss those with 5 or 6 events. might work, might not.

as for novice retention, we pretty much know who is likely to return next year. how was it tracked in years past? the novice meetings offer the greatest oppurtunity to say "hey, see that guy in the M-3, he didn't know sh** 6 months ago. (sorry Rob) he was standing right where you are. with seat time and our help you too can do this."

you got to sell it if you want somebody to buy it, i say. word travels fast i am gathering, because the guys from Triad think our novice program is stupid too. Hmmn, sounds like an oppurtunity to me.

Jim's point isn't necessarily about racing for a trophy. It's more about being competitive. What the year long novice class has done is discouraged those folks that start earlier in the season but are three seconds back from coming out all *season* to be three seconds back. If they knew it was likely that the folks winning by three seconds were gonna get bumped up then that would probably be fine. They'd have a chance to advance and not get beaten continually like a drum while doing it.

Rob, my opinion is you got bad advice on tire selection. First, R compounds cost more and don't last as long as street tires and the only advantage is ultimate grip. The amount of ultimate grip you have has no bearing on how much you learn as a driver (well, having more than you use will actually slow your development). So, you're spending more money for no real gain while you're learning.

Second, and more importantly, apparently, you just bought tires that created no class for you. As you state, if you leave Novice there is nobody showing up in BS to compete against. If you had been on street tires there would be plenty of competition in TIR for you. And it would be cheaper. And you'd probably learn *more* about driving.

I'll also point out what *I* did when I started (thanks to the help and advice from some pretty smart people). I had a Skip Barber three day school under my belt (about as useful for autocross as spirited street driving) when I started. I went to one Tidewater event and then started running national events as a codriver in a fully prepared C-stock car that was pretty much always on the best R-compounds. I was still quite the novice when I did my first Tarheel event, but nobody even told me about Novice class. I just ran open to start with. Did a couple events that first year in open with THSCC and won them. It became obvious quickly, though, that given the competition at the time (this was 2003), that my car preparation was so advanced compared to everyone else in class that there was no way to tell if I was really out *driving* everyone else.

So I moved to Pro class (now X class) the very next year. My point here is that if you've prepped yourself past the level of your competition but there is somewhere to move up, you're just hurting yourself by not moving up. Why? Because you're gonna inevitably sit around and stroke your ego about the big win you just had. Nevermind the fact that X class would have probably pounded you.

Rob, if you want to stay on R compounds, great. But either run against one or two other folks in BS or go ahead and jump up to X class. I promise that it doesn't physically hurt to finish last there (BTDT), but it will make you dig deep to find out what you need to do to be better.

Yeah, some will call me crazy for telling Novices to jump to X class. But isn't that why we changed the name from Pro to X in the first place? If you have no other class to compete in and want to get a true measure of your abilities...

Oh, and as for Jim's comment about balls, well, it's just one of those racing things. Even Danica talks about having "them" sometimes.


--Donnie

We will have to formulate a cutoff for Novice next year, if the program continues as is.

Does running one event last year really mean a whole lot?

Maybe the current way we are doing this does suck. A handfull of people standing on a soap box screaming "THIS SUX" is not very convincing.

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02 Focus SVT
STF 9

I guess I am just dumb. I just dont see that people are being scared away by the current structure. If 26% of the people in Novice at the first event have run every subsequent event and 56% have ran greater than 3 events. I just dont see where Novices are taking their ball and going home.

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02 Focus SVT
STF 9

IMHO The only "problem" I see with the current Nov program is the awarding of season points and trophies. This encourages the novices at the top to stay in novice for the season rather than moving into open "for the trophy". I don't think the year long novice class is hurting other novices coming into the sport mid/late season, it's not a realistic expectation to be competitive/win a trophy in your first few events, heck, I still don't realistically expect to beat people with twice + my experience level and am usually several seconds back at national events, but I keep trying! I keep my eye on the top people in my class, but also set a goal to beat the person who has been consistant finishing a couple places ahead of me, ya know baby steps. It didn't discourage me enough to quit, but I sure wasn't ready to be kicked out of novice class after my third event into a class with Aro, Peterson, et al. That was a hard pill to swallow!

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SPIN or WIN!
there's no glory for going slow.

Ryan, the numbers don't lie, I'll give you that. But is it people at the top staying, or people at the bottom, or a healthy mix? I honestly don't know and am just asking.

Either way, I still agree with the general sentiment that nothing *good* is happening by season long novice points and trophies. *shrug* I didn't say it *sucked*, however. But it has sparked at least one negative looking post on a non THSCC forum about THSCC, so take that for what you will. That could mean that if we've only had one that we're doing pretty damned well.


--Donnie

How about we just stop giving out trophies altogether, then see how many people stick around & keep competing? Oh, wait...

I think too many people are trying to tell the novices what's best for them, instead of listening to find out what the novices want. If you haven't been a novice for a few years, you probably don't get it anymore. And all the stories about how you did it and what worked for you are meaningless, because we aren't all clones here. At my first event, I ran in STS Open and got whipped. Tom Hoppe told me I would've beaten novice class that day by a couple of seconds. So next event I ran novice class and got my 1st place trophy - which bumped me to Open. But even if we had a year-long novice class at the time, I wouldn't have run it, because they weren't the guys I wanted to beat. Hey, guess what? My goals aren't the same as everyone else's.

The people who really like doing this will stick around regardless of whether they're beating up on a bunch of defenseless noobs or getting their butts whipped by fast guys in nationally-prepared cars in Open class. And the people who are just showing up for a trophy are out of luck anyway.

does running one event last year mean anything? no. however i am afraid we will need to approach some entrants on a case by case basis. to be fair it should only be done at the beginning of the season. or at the end of this season i don't know. i believe everyone agrees our goal here is to have true novices in novice class. but what defines a true novice? my opinion is based on yearly participation.

with more attention on the novice class as a whole more misconceptions by novices can be cleared up. as a novice several things irritated me early on. it wasn't the lack of advice or help i was offered by no means. things like directions to events, directions to local hotels, how in the **** does one figure out what size helmet they should purchase. what is a good helmet. ( i know we offer loaners but that ain't me ) these things may sound like hand holding but we need to recognize that some noobs might require this much attention.

as for the dominance of a few entrants in novice class i think it should be standard fare to announce in the meetings (driver & novice) that there are some guys that are excelling. paint a target on their backs. i have heard comments made among novices like " i did terrible, but at least i beat the guy in the porsche"

i would hate to think that were i ever to trophy in novice it was because i was the last guy with experience left in the class. not much satisfaction in knowing that. my only goal now is that maybe someday i meet again in x class those novices that have so far shown superior skills to mine. i don't understand PAX and really don't look at that for judging my progress. raw times mean more to me. how fast did i get thru compared to other cars. i'm getting beat by cars with a third less HP. must be my driving. i have said it before, novice is the truest gauge of how you fare as a driver vs those of similar experience. but yes it could use some fine tuning.

do i want to be a novice coordinator next year? no. i have way too much to learn yet. i don't understand half of the mechanics of autoX and untill i can look ahead consistently i won't learn anything new. should PJ or Rob or Colin be groomed to be novice coordinators? we need to look ahead.

That actually wouldn't bother me. *shrug* But note that nobody is talking about dropping trophies altogether, just the season long novice stuff.



I think part of the problem is that it's hard to get the novices to *say* what they want.



Interesting. See, here I thought it might make sense to hear and give out a few stories so that maybe we'd at least know what *we* thought of being novices since the current novices don't talk about it so much. Especially since those of us that are still here are here for some reason. It's probably hard to catch up with those folks that tried it and didn't come back to find out why.



Thanks for another useless story. Well, except it seems to point out that you at least *did* care about getting a trophy. But well, we all knew that.



So you're saying we *are* wasting money on trophies?

Maybe novice retention *is* up and we're arguing over nothing. Maybe we need to figure out how to keep the old-timers around. Ryan says the numbers show novice retention up, yet by all accounts our attendance figures are down. Could be all this bickering is chasing everyone off.


--Donnie

BINGO! That's the same way I felt about novice. Didnt matter how much you sucked, just stick around long enough and you will get a trophy. Is that better than what we have now?



While I agree with one post on one (very popular) board made it look terrible. However if you break down what the guy in the post said, 90% was totally untrue. The poster, who has many thousands of dollars tied up in his maddd tite Honduh, got pimp slapped by a K car station wagon! Methinks his ego was a little hurt and this was just him lashing out. Must we worry about what every person on every board posts about THSCC?

Also, the way we run things is not set in stone. Hell the 2006 administration may think we are a bunch of bozos and change it back to the way it was.

I also appreciate the tone of this thread staying civil (save for one poster). We have come a long ways since the flame fests of post Laurinburg March.

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02 Focus SVT
STF 9

i sense some tension here.

That's the fault of the damned internet. Too easy to read tension in.

Hopefully nothing I've said caused tension. If anything, perhaps what we should do is poll the novices who are returning each event to ask if it's just a love of what we're doing or if there is anything intrinsic causing them to come back. Maybe that chase for their first season title *is* causing several of these guys to come back and maybe the folks further in the standings would be coming back whether they were regularly getting beaten badly or not. That would be counterintuitive to *me*, but I don't have any evidence to support my feeling on the matter. I certainly don't know any novices who quit because of how bad they got beat. We just have the one madddd Honduh guy.

Discourse on these things *is* good. Just because one guy goes off on another board doesn't mean the club still isn't right. Just because Jim and me and maybe a few other people don't care for the setup doesn't mean it isn't a good one. What would help is polling the novices, which has been pointed out. Or just going with what the numbers say until the numbers don't jive any more. Or just going with the hard work that the current officers are doing until other folks step up to do it their own way. Hmm, I like that last one best, though hopefully the officers can also take a few contrary opinions along the way. (Not that anyone hasn't...)


--Donnie