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Until this year ST* was banned from NOV for the reasons Mike stated.

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02 Focus SVT
STF 9

I had to beat a DSP car on R compounds with my STS car on stock springs & struts (with DSP pax - no STS pax in novice at the time) to get my novice win. I remember it because the guy was gridded next to me, talking trash with his buddies about how he was going to clean up on everybody else in novice class. I guess he either couldn't read the letters on my car, or was just such a badass he didn't care.

(This was right at 3 yrs ago.)

So, if I understand it right, all the NOVs are really doing is running a R-compound class.... negated? So, only R-compound 'prepped' cars are allowed, but you are not allowed to run R-compounds..... this is why ST cars are not allowed as their PAX is figured with street tires already in teh PAX making them have an unfair advantage....

So, we are infavor of making a class that is basically "Intro to TIR class"?
I just think the THSCC board members need to vote it so, have it be whatever way, and move on.

At this point, to me, it just seems that we need to choose our stance and live with it (as always).

Sucks being an ST-guy/gal with nowhere to go. I thought ST was supposed to be the POPULAR class as you didn't have to buy R-comps.. hence it's birth!

So, we have ALL these 'other' classes just so people don't have to buy race rubber..... interesting.

- brian


Wow.

Brain,
That was before we changed to the current year long novice class, when you were 3 and out or trophy and out. Novices can now run with any pax class, PJ is running in STX which in past years would not have been allowed.

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David Teague
2015 Lexus IS 250c
1994 Honda Del Sol HS 39
2009 Dodge Journey R/T
http://teaguefamily.us

Woops... my apologies. I missed that. I know that is what kept me out of ever running NOV with THSCC in the past.

I may have missed some of this in the conversation in this thread then, but if THAT is true, should not that mean that NOVs running R-comps SHOULD run them if they can as they have been PAX'd that way, and they would have an unfair advantage against ST* drivers?

Thanks for clearing that up David. I missed that part of the thread


- brian

I ran a stock Contour with Firestone Firehawk all-season radials with a GS PAX to win my first event to the cheers "Welcome to Open class".

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Has no responsibility whatsoever.

Yup. You got it.

Well since this new never-ending thread is on page 8 and no one else is reading, I'll pass on a story that might help a lot of the newer people to the club further see how complicated this whole NOV thing is, why there is no clear "right" thing to do, and why people that have been trying to administer this club a long time slowly start to hate PAX...

About 2001 or so our NOV class had the "old" rules, most NOVs were showing up on street tires as God intended (sarcasm). Then STS became popular. Suddenly about maybe 1/4 to 1/3 of the NOVs realized they could run their HS, GS, whatever cars in STS and get a great PAX since it's already based on street rubber. Suddenly, all of the Miata and
M3 and Corvette NOVs started making noise about how unfair that was because they didn't have a "soft" pax class to use in NOV, and no one was running race tires. So we dis-allowed STS as mentioned because of this and made people run STR (remember that class?). Then STR went away and STX and STU ans STS2 came around and became more popular, etc, etc. With the new NOV class (and my insistence) the officers lifted the STS/STS2/STX/STU ban, thusly "encouraging" non-ST cars to run race tires.

Sucks doesn't it? There's no easy way to deal with this.

PS: This is all the SCCA's fault for creating the ST* classes. Blame them!

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Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

History:

When I started the club in 1997:

NOV was a run what you brung, wherever it appropriately classes. No limits on tires. 3 and out, or trophy and you are sent to open or street tire class.

Enter the STS and STR (precursor to STX) don't know the exact year:

It was decided that since most novices arrive and drive on street tires, then we should not have a paxed class that is required to have street tires in the novice class. If the person wanted to run their STS car in DSP with the Novices (assuming the car's legality for that class) then they can do that. Nothing was stoping them, nor was it frowned upon. They got their novice events, with a pax based on an R compound tire (which most people didn't use). Then, when they get kicked out of novice, they moved to STS (not DSP).

Last year:

Someone (I don't know who since I lived in MA by then) proposed a year long novice class, and to allow all SCCA paxed classes in for a run at a year end trophy. Enough other people must have thought this was a good idea since the idea was adopted for this year to see how it goes.

Present day:

This thread examines a complaint (or possibly just confusion/misconseption) about the way NOV is run in THSCC. You guys can only do so much to make the rules available to the newbies. It's there on the website if one cares to look. Probably a conversation with this guy would clear it up so he can adjust his expectations.

My $.02:

Whenever you autocross, wherever you autocross, there will always be more experience people there, and less experienced people there. Someone will always be better than you (except for a few people perhaps), and someone will always be worse than you. If we try, by the rules, to make everyone "equal" we are doing a disservice to the participents in the class (whatever class it is).

Bottom line is:

The world is not fair. Come out. Race. Have fun. Improve your skills. When appropriate for you, throw money at the car. Strive for that trophy if it's important to you (novice, experienced, etc.) but NEVER expect the rules to make it "fair" for everyone. People's abilities are too varied to make all compeditors equal no matter what we do as rulemakers.


Best of luck to the decision makers for next year to sort through all the feedback and make the right decision for the club for next year.

Diane ~ who watches a year-long novice program work great up here in New England.

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Diane (Hall) Bundas
1992 Spec Miata #48 - 1997 Chevy Tahoe - 2007 Honda Civic Coupe

Diane, can you give us more details on the program that is used up north?

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In need of car.

It's pretty simple. You show up to your event.

If you want to run novice, you do (in whatever class the car would class in for open).

There are actually 2 "novice" classes. Novice "stock" and Novice "modified". SS-HS are in Novice Stock. SP, P, M, and the ST classes are in Novice modified. At the end of the event, the results are paxed for each of the 2 classes. Trophies are awarded, as are year end points. At then end of the year, the members who qualify for a year end trophy (using the 1 for 3, 2 for 4, 3 for 7 rule) get a year-end trophy and everyone moves on to the open classes (though I believe there is a cutoff where if you start AFTER x date, you can run another year in novice).

I'm not sure as to the reason for the 2 novice classes... might be sheer numbers, might be better "comparability" of raw times. I haven't asked.

Novices all run with their class so they can get to know others with similar cars, and get help, advice, etc. (Up here people seem to grid by class. it's not a rule, and the grid guys don't make it happen, it just seems to on it's own.)

We have no tire class, no pro class. It's an SCCA club and we pretty much stick to the book. You run your regular class either in novice or in open class. If you want to run ladies, you run CSL, or EPL, etc. Not a paxed class. They don't even bump up here. Keeps things really simple for results.

If anyone wants me to get more info from our Novice chair, I'd be happy to.

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Diane (Hall) Bundas
1992 Spec Miata #48 - 1997 Chevy Tahoe - 2007 Honda Civic Coupe

At this pace, this is goingt o 10 pages poll or not.

PJ, My personal 2 cents is that we shouldn't do any kind of "official" poll to get novice opinion via the forum. Mainly because I don't know what percentage of the novices are on the forum and if the results would really be valid.

But if someone wants to setup a poll, please feel free. But as with anything discussed here, don't assume it is going to automagiclly change things based upon the poll results. Someone would need to work with the officers/autocross VPs to make that happen.

I do think it is a good idea to ask the novices what they think however.

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Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

Great Idea!!!

Unfortunately, I think the *majority* of the Novices don't know where to go for a unified place for info and conversation.

Is this something that we should stress? Should we say "Hey, go to our forums where you can say exactly what you feel, and we will help you in a calm and logical manner?"

Man, maybe should open up the autoXes with NOVICE questions before talking! Flyers.. handouts.... make them log into the web site or they get a DNRWWS.

PJ and Dan -- What do you guys think would be a good way to get through to the NOVICES or make the autoXes make you feel more involved/apart/whatevea?

When in doubt, ask those this thread are really about!

- brian

I watched one or two runs and he was breaking the tires loose some. But usually on the short straights between elements where he would go WOT for just a second. I don't think he was agressive enough elsewhere to have problems putting down the power.

Personally I would have loved to do a fun run in the car to see what it was like.

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Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

i would be lying if i told ya'll that i understand classing. ste stu sts uto ut (go vols) etc. point of contention from a novice viewpoint.

i feel the club would be doing a disservice to novices to drop the yearlong class. points, trophies, etc. i am open for change.

the dude from the honda forum, i looked at his times and it seems to me that he was consistent all day long. he coned in the am, slowed down in the pm to get a clean run. he did not get beat by anything more than himself. been there, done that. AND IF I MUST REPEAT MYSELF. this gentleman would be the perfect canidate for THSCC's mentor program. did anyone ride along with this guy? my guess ---- no. did he ask or would he ask? i think you can see this coming, my guess-------------- probably not.

Someone can start a poll but they generally dont work because most dont bother to vote.

I think this issue is really brought to light because we have what I think is a huge crop of novices who will probably stick around for many years to come. I also can not think of a group of novices who are as fast as these are.

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02 Focus SVT
STF 9