Question about SM/SM2 rules

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Wed Jun 22, 2005 2:16 pm

Rich Anderson wrote:

So, the Cayenne Turbo V8 with 450hp would be legal? That would probably hurry a 914 along.

All joking aside, I think so. I think at some point you run into getting enough tire under the car without adding flares. And I think SM uses SP flare rules? I can't remember, but I think you can't add flares in SP? Anyhow, I think flares on 914s are ugly. I did a quick google search and didn't find any examples of that swap (probably pretty expensive). I think there are examples of the 928 V8 being used. The wild swaps are the 3+ L flat six turbo swaps. I think there are even examples of 962 racing flat six turbo swaps.

Les Davis wrote:

So Richard, planning a trip to the darkside are we??? Eeeeexxxxxcellent... :twisted:

Yes Sir!!

Think of Patrice's car, but less weight and mid engine vs. engine hanging over the rear. I most likely will run DSP with the flat 4 until I can do the six swap. Mostly doing my research right now.

I think Robert Plank also already has a 914 and is planning a six swap sometime in the future.

Keith Vail · **Posted:** Wed Jun 22, 2005 2:21 pm

I am assuming you car doesn't have the GT style fender flares. I prefer the looks of them with the flares that is what my dad's had and with some hub adapters we were running Corvette ZR-1 wheels under it with Goodyear Eagle racing slicks. That thing stuck like there was no tomorrow. So you can fit some pretty damn big wheels under the factory style fender flares.

Rich Anderson · **Posted:** Wed Jun 22, 2005 2:22 pm

You can flare or have wheels that stick out in SP. If SM is the same, the only constraint on tire size is budget.

Patrice Bousquet · **Posted:** Wed Jun 22, 2005 3:26 pm

Richard, nice to see that you are interested in a P car. The best bang for the buck if you want to put a 6 in a 914 is to put a newer stock engine, like the 3.2 that I got, or a 3.6. A used 3.2 will run around 4 or 5k$ and a 3.6 around 6 or 7k$. Rebuilding a 2.4 or 2.7 to achieve the same performance than a 3.2 or 3.6 will cost you 2 or 3 times more. An unstressed 3.2/3.6 will also be more reliable than a stress 2.4/2.7. If you build a 914 with a suspension setup like Jason P. powered by a 3.2 you will have a car for FTD raw time. Do you want a nice 3.2? If I want to have a chance to beat you for the raw time I need a 3.6 in my car.
For the weight don't forget that a 6 is more heavy than a 4 and you need to install an oil tank for the 6. So your car weight will be similar to my car.

Anyhow it's a good project, good luck in finding a nice 914.

Patrice
That at one moment had the idea of putting an 928S4 engine in a 914.

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Wed Jun 22, 2005 4:00 pm

Keith Vail wrote:

I am assuming you car doesn't have the GT style fender flares

I have this thing where I tend to not like the looks of the GT style flares, but I need to see one in person again to make a decision. I tend to think that many who have the flares are just posers and do it for the bling factor. I am so non-bling it is not funny.

Rich Anderson wrote:

You can flare or have wheels that stick out in SP. If SM is the same, the only constraint on tire size is budget.

I need to read all of the SP rules. Especially since it looks like SM lets you pick allowances from S, ST and SP.

Patrice Bousquet wrote:

...you need to install an oil tank for the 6.

That oil tank is quite expensive. Even the reproduction units if I remember correctly.

I will have to look into the price on a used 3.x vs. 2.x. I had been thinking a 2.4 or 2.7, but price is a factor, so if I can do a 3.x for less than a 2.x, I will go that route. Keeping the option open with the 3.x route is one reason I was asking about the transmission swap. I think that many who go with a 3.x engine tend to upgrade the transmission at the same time.

I expect I will have the car first before I aquire the new engine and I don't have the car yet. I think the prices on decent 914 with not much rust is going up faster than used engines (could be wrong), so I am keeping an eye out on a deal for a decent body now.

This is not the cheapest way to build a fast car, but I had two 914s in college and have always wanted to build a fast 914. I will always remember my first ride in a 914 that had a 3L swap.

Rich Anderson · **Posted:** Wed Jun 22, 2005 4:16 pm

Richard Casto wrote:

Rich Anderson wrote:

You can flare or have wheels that stick out in SP. If SM is the same, the only constraint on tire size is budget.

I need to read all of the SP rules. Especially since it looks like SM lets you pick allowances from S, ST and SP.

Section 15.2 A

Quote:

Fenders and bumpers may be modified for tire clearance. This
includes the portion of a hood which serves as a fender/wheel
well, where applicable. This does not permit modifications to the
chassis or bodywork inboard of the vertical plane of the hub-wheel
mounting face. Flares may be added although tires may extend
beyond the bodywork. Replacement of complete hood, flared fenders,
or quarter panels is prohibited. Plastic and rubber wheel well
splash shields may be modified for tire clearance and for installation
of fender flares as allowed herein.

So it appears you can flare outward but tubing (modifing or replacing inner wheel well metal) inward is not allowed.

Patrice Bousquet · **Posted:** Wed Jun 22, 2005 4:18 pm

A 2.4/2.7 should be around 1K$ less than a 3.2. For sure an 915 base tranny will be better. Talk to Chuck Miller at Millersport, Millersport - 306 Rabbit Lane - Hillsborough, NC 27278 - (919)644-2930 he always had a lot of car for parts or rebuildable one. If you do most of the work yourself it might not be that expensive to have a fast car. After all, a Porsche is a Porsche.

Patrice

Adam Ligon · **Posted:** Wed Jun 22, 2005 4:26 pm

I know a guy with 2 914's that he is looking to move. I think one is parts 1 he just repainted. LMK if you want his info, the cars are in Apex

Matthew_Thomson · **Posted:** Wed Jun 22, 2005 4:46 pm

DickRasmussen · **Posted:** Wed Jun 22, 2005 4:50 pm

FYI in the old days (before big Porsche sixes) it was common to build VERY competitive 914 Mod cars with BIG fours. See 1982/83/84 EMod National Champion in the back of the SCCA rule book.

I believe Bobby Smith from the Hampton Roads area has a fast 914/4. Check VMP, etc. results.

Whatever you do, bring money and make sure you stiffen the chassis.

I would also be surprised if you can harness the power of even a big 4 with SM2 DOT tires.

Dick

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Wed Jun 22, 2005 5:25 pm

Adam and Matt, thanks for the pointers. Matt, I had not thought to try Craigslist yet. Adam, I will give him a call. :thumbsup:

Dick, I don't know if I want to go to the extremes of a Mod or Prepared car.

I actually expect this car to be tri-purpose. First a track car, second autocross/hillclimb and third street legal (in that order). It has to be street legal as I don't see a tow vehical in my future for quite some time. I realize this is going to require some compromises on what is done with the car.

I also basically don't want to do specific track mods that push me out of SM2. SM2 seems to be pretty open to some pretty crazy stuff. Basically I have a list of what I want to do for a track car. Right now the biggest items that look to be not allowed in SM2 is some of the stiffening that can be achieved via more agressive cage design (such as pass through front firewall and tie cage to suspension pickup points). Again, I need to read SP* rules front to back as well as the GCR for track type of stuff.

DickRasmussen · **Posted:** Wed Jun 22, 2005 5:51 pm

Richard,

Sounds like your target is "a less than maximum allowed" "ST or SP" level of preparation but with the freedom of the SM rule set. i.e. a FUN car! What a concept.

Dick (whose MOD car isn't even maxed to what the rules allow)

Jason Panciera · **Posted:** Fri Jun 24, 2005 1:38 pm

Richard-
No matter what you decide for power, plan on lots of $$$$$$$$$$$.
The big fours Dick talked about are indeed very potent , and weigh in less than the 6' s do, but by no means are they cheap. 180 reliable hp is possible with one, but plan on upwards of 7K to build it. And remember that is an engine that was originally designed to put out 1/2 that horsepower.
A good 3.0/3.2 six will put down a very reliable 180-200, complete with the benefits of modern FI. But bring your $$ for the conversion. I have been on the look out myself and have been seeing prices more like $5-5500 for 3.0s and $6500 for 3.2s with the DME. And you're not done yet... used factory oil tanks are trading around $800 clams, aftermarket tanks are in the $600 range, you have oil lines $2-300, engine tin $4-500, throttle set up $1-200, headers (w/o heat) $500, with heat $1200, external oil cooler $5-900, engine mount (the only one to get is the Rich Johnson mount) $400, flywheel $300, tach, etc., etc. etc..........and there are no labor charges figured in there...... and with all that extra power on board, you're going to want to upgrade those solid rotors to late model 911 brakes, which will mean new 5 lug wheels on top of all that...Then you'll want Konis/coil overs/camber plates/sways/torsion bars....WOW, it's well over 10K PLUS the car! Sick! How much would a nicely done /6 conversion sell for? Depends....10-16K maybe? Original sixes are selling in the high teens/low 20s...Find somebody's abandoned project for dimes on the dollar....
A 3.2 in a 914? An eternal smile producer.......

Jason Panciera · **Posted:** Fri Jun 24, 2005 1:45 pm

Oh, and a 915 tranny conversion??? $4-5K......
Remember ring and pinion need to be flipped (5 reverse gears are not cool), clutch needs to be converted from push to pull, and a cable shifter needs to be run.

914s seem like a cheap, entry level P car, but at the parts counter, it is still a Por$che. (for which there is No Substitute)

Oh, and Patrice....as a driver, I am nowhere near approaching the potential of my car...a more skilled wheel man would be knocking on your door for FTD every week...... :lol:

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Fri Jun 24, 2005 1:55 pm

Jason,

You just don't add up the cost as you go or look at the receipts. Just live life from one bill to the next! :lol:

Seriously it is not cheap and it going to be a LONG term project. I am only just now keeping an eye out for a decent car. I expect I will run the 4 cyl for awhile and add/upgrade as quickly as available $$$$ allow.

THSCC Forums

Question about SM/SM2 rules

Who is online