THSCC Forums

No I didn't say that, you did. You assume I meant black top sealed asphalt like Greenville. There must be more than one way to seal asphalt enough so it doesn't crumble without putting black top on it.

Ryan aren't there other options available besides just black top everything in sight and turn it into an ice skating rink?

_________________
http://www.greywinds.com

"Chip Seal" That's what you call it right Ryan? It's ex-pen-sive too right?

_________________
Vincent Keene
'06 Ford Mustang GT (track rat)
'15 Dodge Charger R/T (yeah, it's got a HEMI!)
'07 Ford Fusion SE (205,000 miles and counting)
'98 Chevy Z-24 (retired)
'93 Acura Integra (Team SWB 24HOL Car)

There are 2 types of sealcoating.

The first type is the kind that Wes references at the Greenville site. It is sprayed on from a small "wagon" or large distributor. It is the most common of sealcoating. It does real well at sealing as long as the surface is clean when you apply it. As we all know, its not the greatest for grip.

The second type is not commonly used in commercial applications. It is a sealer/rejuvinator that is most commonly used on airport aprons. Being as it is a rejuvinator it breaks down a bit of the top of the asphalt to try and bond to it. In my experience it NEVER, EVER completly dries. This would be better for grip but probably would suffer from cars racing over it.

As a point of reference, the asphalt pavement at Sanford and the concrete pavement at L'burg are two different monsters.

Sanford's "sand" isnt all that bad and is quite "normal". It builds up partially due to lack of use, which sucks for us. The soil around Sanford seems to be very sandy and I think a good part of it is blown onto the runway. Sanford's asphalt is NOWHERE near the point of looking anything like Laurinburg. Worry about the pavement when it has a "texture". This is when over time the elements and us racers have worn down the finer aggregates in the asphalt mix, exposing the larger aggregates giving it a course texture.

Laurinburg looks the way it does becuase A- Its older than most of our grandparents B- It getsvirtually NO traffic to keep the vegatation killed down C- Its just what happens to unmaintained 60-70 year old concrete that is not designed like today's modern "flexible" concrete mixes.

_________________
02 Focus SVT
STF 9

No, actually "Chip Seal" or BST as the NCDOT references it is VERY cheap when compared to asphalt resurfacing.

I dont think its what we want either. Your basically taking an asphalt emulsion, mixing some clean aggregates with it and slapping it on the ground. MESSY!!! Once finally cured out and the loose aggregate blown away, you would be left with a "cheese grater" type surface.

_________________
02 Focus SVT
STF 9

Is there an autocross friendly repair (i.e. will hold up to 1.5 to 2.0 g's from slicks and won't shed sand and gravel) for asphalt other than a complete repave with "high quality" asphalt?

_________________
Dick Rasmussen

FS 50 2018 Mustang GT

Not really

_________________
02 Focus SVT
STF 9

Let's get back to discussing configuration changes or modifications to the existing shape of what we have to work with. You guys aren't helping me right now....

Miles,

What "they" and "we" need the most is whatever is possible to allow relatively long mid second gear sweeping turns and approximately 90 to 180 deg corners that can be taken in mid second gear. Lane changes and slaloms are fine but they and we sure could use "practice" where the car can take a set and be driven in either constant, increasing, or decreasing radius situations similar to the real world. Driving is more than quick transitions and tight 180's which are just about all that can be done on narrow runways.

Also, be sure to emphasize the need for the smoothest possible transitions between existing pavement and any new pavement. Drainage to avoid "lakes" on rainy days will be important also.

Without "instructions" to contractors I can just see new pavement being pitched to make lakes

_________________
Dick Rasmussen

FS 50 2018 Mustang GT

Just a comment ... if I understand the "S" thing correctly.

You can make the point that just paving an S by itself is very limiting in terms of future use. By far the best potential improvement they could make for overall usage would be to increase the width of the main runway even over a short distance. S curves, skidpads, etc could be coned off on a wider section for their training purposes.

I agree that the taxiway should be all but abandoned. The grading is too steep on either side and any extra pavement would not be safe to maneuver on. Same goes for the crossovers, unfortunately. IIRC, they are all already too close to the drainage and concrete embankments.

Maybe suggest that in the center of the runway they extend the width from 75' to 150' or even 250' towards the train tracks (nice and flat), over a length of 500' or 750'. They should be able to squeeze in any and all types of future course requirements into a nice big rectangle like that.

Oh, and it would be nice for us too Have them repave the whole rectangle with normal parkinglot-style asphalt in an effort to help simulate "real world grip" that officers/firemen/ambulance drivers are likely to encounter on the street. The grittiness of the current site (or any sealed surfaces) are NOT representative of street asphalt. Dunno if that matters to them, but maybe they will see the light.

I have always thought that we are uniquely positioned in this club at being relative EXPERTS in grip variance on different types of pavement conditions, just by the fact that we have lots of experience driving at the limit of grip on lots of surfaces. Maybe we can use this collective knowledge to our advantage?

Just some random thoughts for ya

_________________
Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

Actually, no it probably wouldnt. New asphalt that holds water is work that you genrally DONT get paid for.

_________________
02 Focus SVT
STF 9

I don' t have much to offer in the way of suggestions for changes to the configuration, but as a Land Surveyor, I'd volunteer my services in putting together some sort of a composite map illustrating the existing conditions and the proposed changes/additions.

Miles-
Email me jasonatcmpplsdotcom and we'll set a time up for a site visit so I can take some measurements and set up a base map.

_________________
Jason Panciera
1999 Porsche 996
1974 Porsche 914 SM2 0 Gone but not forgotten

Whatever we come up wth needs to minimize the amount of landfill and grading required. Mike's suggestion to widen the runway towards the railroad line is a good one, the only downside is that you lose the runoff room that exists now. Some fill and grading of the drop-off on that side will be needed, plus possibly a barrier near the railroad right-of-way. Widening towards the middle will increase the slope towards the drainage ditch, making it similar to what we have on the school side of the taxiway.

Widening a cross-over enough to allow left or right hand constant radius turns (starting from the taxiway, of course) would work for law-enforcement training, but may not be so useful to us unless it's large enough to be used as a skidpad. The grade off the sides of the crossover will need to be such that you don't have cars flipping if they go off sideways. The pipe/culvert for the ditch running under the crossover will be an issue too. Sounds like I'm voting for widening the main runway

Now about that traffic signal... how will it be suspended? If it's anywhere near where we would want to route an autocross course, then there have to be poles, and that's not good.

Jason,

I'm not sure how much this would help a surveyor but we have a map, with to scale measurements, of the runway area. It doesn't cover how far from the runway to the tracks. It also doesn't show any elevations. Just a flat one dimensional view of the whole site.

Graham

_________________
http://www.greywinds.com

Miles - I may be able to help. The firm I work for designs, among other things, law enforcement training facilities - including tracks. We have done several in Virginia and have an ongoing contract with FLETC (Federal Law Enforcement Training Center). I could share some example drawings of facilities we've done to generate some ideas. I could probably help put a drawing together for the Sanford site using aerial and GIS data as a base then adding whatever ideas are proposed.

No, I can't arrange a fieldtrip for the club to "inspect" one of these tracks in the name of research. Although, it would be fun!

LEMENO,

Cash

_________________
09 Bullitt - DD
11 Fusion - Wife's DD
03 Mazda6 - Track car
00 PSD Excursion - Tow rig
67 Firebird - Don't you still own your 1st car?
61 F100 - Dad's truck
90 Moto Guzzi Calif III - Tourer
00 Cagiva - Adventure bike
00 DRZ400 - Woods bike

Small world Cash! Long time no see. When are you coming back out to Autocross with us? I know that SHO must be dead by now so what are your driving these days?

_________________
Vincent Keene
'06 Ford Mustang GT (track rat)
'15 Dodge Charger R/T (yeah, it's got a HEMI!)
'07 Ford Fusion SE (205,000 miles and counting)
'98 Chevy Z-24 (retired)
'93 Acura Integra (Team SWB 24HOL Car)