THSCC Forums

I need some info on harnesses. I performed a search and didn't find what I was looking for. I am planning to buy a cam-lock harness for my 2001 Integra Type R. My main purposes for now are daily driving and autocrossing, but plan to do an HPDE at some point.

My questions are:

1) 5 point or 6 point?
2) Brand and source?
3) I want the eye bolts for the front mounts so I can remove during daily driving. Do they come with everything required for installation?
4) Are the shoulder pads needed?
5) I have read that they shouldn't be installed on cars without roll bars. Is this true?

Thanks in advance.

1. either
2. g-force and simpson both make a good product.
3. you may need to buy some hardware
4. i drive with them in my rabbit - no pads. but i dont daily drive that car.
5. technically, yes they should not.

Well my opinions are;

1) With a fixed roof car 5pt is plenty. Its mostly convertables than run/need 6pts

2)Some people may be willing to pay a premium for a certain name, I am not. Especailly when they all meet the same specs. G-force therefore is who I would suggest. And for the second part I won't put out the shameless plug....well not directly

3)No, they come ready for wrap installation on a roll bar or harness bar. But you can get which ever hardware you like for you situation.

4)I would say not, but is partially tied into the next answer

5)For track use, no you should not have a harness w/o a bar or cage. Use on an autox is fine. But also be aware no SFI approved harness are legal for street use or DOT approved, to my knowledge. That disclaimer out of the way, I completey removed the stock belts from my 944 as it is pretty much a track only car and I use my 5pts on the street in that car. And yes it does have a bar.

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91 Jetta GLI STS/DSP 111
85 Porsche 944 ASP 11
http://www.blackforestindustries.com

3)Why remove the harnesses? Keep the stock 3pts in the car for daily driving and tuck the harness away. In most cases, you CAN have both. That's my setup in the Miata. Constantly removing and reinstalling the harnesses seems unnecessarily complex and introduces a lot of possibility for human error.

Also, I'd suggest the 6pt over a 5pt in a car with stock seats. Without going in to nauseating detail, having to bring the 5pt's substrap up over front of the seat bottom cushion limit's it's effectiveness in an incident. A 6pt setup seems to be a little more optimized for a stock seat car. Some people just hate the way you have to sit on the 6pt's substraps. YMMV. Find a car with 6pts and ask to sit in it.

Though no one has mentioned them specifically, there are the Schrothe 4pts that are DOT certified. I even know of those being used on track in an HPDE setting.

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Tom Freeman
'98 M3/4/5 | '93 Spec3 325i | '12 TSX sport wagon | '03 Tahoe
Team Silver Bullets '91 240SX

I agree 100%. I just went through the whole harness thing for time trials, and unless you're using a race seat with sub-strap hole in the bottom cushion (or planning to have a sub-strap hole cut into your seat), the only reasonable option is 6 pt. I recently installed a Simpson 6-pt harness in my BMW, it clips in/out, and I do remove it and store it between time trial events, mainly because it's not good to leave it sitting in the sun. If you'd like to check it out, please PM me.


I also have these installed in my BMW (both driver and passenger sides) and use them for autocrossing and for the school portion of the HDPE (I only use the 6-pt for the actual time trial, since I chose to install a 6-pt only on the driver's side). I can tell you the Schroth DOT 4-pts are a whole lot easier/quicker to cinch up than any 5- or 6-pt. Again, if you'd like to check these out, please PM me.

Keith (the guy with the OEM 3-pts, Schroth 4-pts, and Simpson 6-pts all in one car)

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Keith Q.
2008 Top Gun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmX8XuZ_DCo&NR=1

Definitely 6 pt camlock. Some vendors may offer free hardware but it will be for permanent installation. The clip-on harness brackets will cost you extra. I got my G-Force 6 pt camlocks from Discovery Parts. They always have extremely competitive prices and are prompt on shipment.

The '95 Miata has 7/16-20 thread for the seatbelt bolts. I had to go to a specialty race shop (Pegasus) to get grade 8 eyebolts in that pitch. Hopefully you won't have those kind of issues.

Do you have a roll bar in your car? If not, mounting the shoulder straps properly could be trickey and require some additional thinking and hardware.

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“I feel safer on a racetrack than I do on Houston's freeways.” - A.J. Foyt

Kevin Butler
Mobetta Autosport Spec E30 #612
2003 C5 Z06 Corvette
AFR Miata, SM2 61, '93 w/200 SC'd RWHP - soon to be resurrected
Waaaay too many other projects....

Thanks for all of the quick responses! I have been doing a little more research, and it looks like the Schroth Rallye 4 may be the best option for my purposes. It looks easy to get in and out of, and I could use it in HPDE if I wanted to (but would probably use the OEM belts until I have a rollbar). Also, it looks like it was designed to mount to the rear seat belt bolt locations and is easily pushed aside during daily driving. Any additional comments are welcome!

That is news to me. I know they are DOT certified. But reading THSCC and other HPDE's requirements, as well as tracks, I can't see how 2" belts can meet them.

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91 Jetta GLI STS/DSP 111
85 Porsche 944 ASP 11
http://www.blackforestindustries.com

Schrothe 4pts: The key word there is HPDE, vs time trial. I have no idea if they're legal for a time trial under the current ruleset. I doubt it, but I don't know for sure.

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Tom Freeman
'98 M3/4/5 | '93 Spec3 325i | '12 TSX sport wagon | '03 Tahoe
Team Silver Bullets '91 240SX

You are correct, Tom, the DOT listed 4-pt belts are allowed in THSCC's HPDE events but not time trials. This is addressed in sections 5.1 and 6.1 of the TZC/THSCC Technical Spec Guide, located at http://www.thscc.com/timetrial/nonhtml/Tech_GuideV2_Final.pdf.

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Keith Q.
2008 Top Gun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmX8XuZ_DCo&NR=1

Note that the Schroth is not a true harness, the shoulder straps have a loop in the end the lap belt is threaded thru. It uses a standard seatbelt type buckle on the lap portion.
I WOULD NOT recommend the Simpson. It has a flip lever cam buckle that sticks up past the buckle into my "hangover" rather than a twist release one.
One of the biggest misconceptions about harnesses is the purpose and function of the crotch strap. It is NOT to keep you from sliding out of the seat!!! (I'd never risk the injury that would result if that was the case!)
It's sole purpose is to resist the pull from the shoulder straps to keep the buckle from riding up into your diaphram, so it really is immaterial if you use 5 or 6 point set. We have a 5 point Simpson setup with custom rear mounting in the Celica, and G force 6 point in the Miata. I'm going to change the Miata to a 5 point soon, the 6 point hooked to the seat mounts makes the seat adjustment awkward and bends the clips so they aren't removable anyway. With the 5 point in the Celica we don't remove the crotch strap, just tuck it under the seat.
DON'T use a harness set for the street!!! It is dangerous to do so, you have nearly no movement if it is tightened properly which makes it near impossible to see at an angled intersection or to turn around to back up. If you leave it loose, you might as well not use it at all. You probably will not be able to reach some of the dash controls either.
It makes as much sense to use a RACING harness on the street as daily driving around town on R compounds, yes you could do it, but why would you want to?

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SPIN or WIN!
there's no glory for going slow.

It's a real harness, it all depends upon your definition of harness:

Main Entry: 1har·ness
Pronunciation: 'här-n&s
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English herneis baggage, gear, from Old French

1 a : the gear other than a yoke of a draft animal b : GEAR, EQUIPMENT; especially : military equipment for a horse or man

2 a : occupational surroundings or routine <get back into harness after a vacation> b : close association <ability to work in harness with others -- R. P. Brooks>

3 a : something that resembles a harness (as in holding or fastening something) <a parachute harness> b : prefabricated wiring with insulation and terminals ready to be attached

4 : a part of a loom which holds and controls the heddles

As for the Schroth Rallye 4, it's the only DOT approved harness on the market, and it can be used for our HPDE program if installed properly. The key to a 4 point is adjusting it properly. As long as you make sure that the lap belt is snug across the hips prior to tightening the shoulder belts, it's every bit as good as a five point. Problem is that most don't know how to put it on correctly. - AB

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'14 Toyota Sequoia Platinum 4WD
Super Westerfield Bros - '93 Integra - LeChump Du Jour
STX 93 - Scion FR-S

Based on my personal experience, I would recommend the Simpson - I have zero issues with their cam buckle system. Of course, I never drive with a hangover.

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Keith Q.
2008 Top Gun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmX8XuZ_DCo&NR=1

I think you two are talking two different "hangovers"

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02 Focus SVT
STF 9

The Rallye 3 is also, as detailed here.

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Rich
http://www.v8mongrel.com/