THSCC Forums

Since the list has been so quiet and sane lately:

After Todd's steering wheel question and all the other threads in the vein of "can I do this even though it's technically illegal" I think that having some formal THSCC exceptions to national SCCA rules would be really nice.

We could put a list on the website with a big red disclaimer that these things would be illegal in other clubs but people (like 90% of the club unfortunately) who never go to outside events could have fun and not worry about some of the more nitpicky things the SCCA has to worry about, the SCCA having national championships and all. The idea is that these mods would not provide meaningful performance benefit for the average regional competitor, with zero consideration paid the effects of these rules on the largely theoretical max prep national effort. Here's my starter list:

--Any steering wheel any car any class, drivers side airbag removal/disablement OK
--Any rubber or poly motor mount or mount insert any car any class. Solid mounts only in classes that SCCA allows such things. Anything that mounts rotating driveline parts driven by the engine is included, even differential mounts. This would keep (for example) A2 VW people from swapping rear control arm bushings in stock but would allow substitution of all motor mounts even though only 2 are actually mounted directly to the motor.
--Any steering rack bushing in ST SP and above following the same wording as other suspension bushings in the SCCA rulebook.
--Any hood in ST SP and above.
--Any non-cold-air intake any car any class.
--Stainless brake or clutch lines any car any class.

Much more than this would make it really difficult for anyone who follows these rules to step up to full SCCA legality. For example, allowing cam changes in SP would make the transition to national SCCA SP rules very difficult as the entire FI mapping would have to be redone. Thoughts? Am I on crack? (I do live in Durham, it's a possibility. )

--Kevin H.

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2003 WRX (again!)

We as a club voted a while back to use SCCA rules. This was because another area club chough cough TRIAD had there own classes and modification rules. Running their events was a problem because you did not know where to class yourself and their people had the same problem running our events. So I don't think you should take it upon yourself to change rules for the club because you don't think some are fair.

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George Bright Member # 141
One of the youngest of the old farts.
Yes I voted against you joining the club.

It's not that I think the rules are unfair. And it's not that I'm taking it upon myself to change them. I'm just thinking out loud on the club forum. If a critical mass agrees and thinks this is a good idea maybe something will get voted on someday. Until then this is just brainstorming.

The types of rule questions in my little list above have been recurring questions for years yet the only rationale is that "the SCCA does it that way, we have to as well." Since such a large percentage of THSCC members don't run in any other clubs events the fact (100% accepted) that this introduces some classing confusion for people coming/going to other events is somewhat minimized.

FYI I plan on keeping my car 100% SCCA legal as I run in too many other events. Try to view my post without the "he must be doing this for his own self interest glasses" on.

--Kevin H.

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2003 WRX (again!)

The club membership can and will do what they think is best for the club as a whole, but as one of the folks who enjoys racing at the national level as well as locally, I would prefer we keep formal SCCA rules. It would be very frustrating for me to have to live by one set of rules and compete with folks locally who live by another set.

It also opens up a big can of worms that I don't *really* think you want to get into. The SCCA goes to great lengths to come up with sane rules. While we may not like or agree with all of them, the reality is that they do a hard and thankless job. Changing them would require some sort of rules committee of our own and all the associated politics it would bring. Not fun.


--Donnie

I am also not in favor of changing to our own "unique" set of classing rules. As far as I'm concerned, minor changes that don't affect performance are not likely to be challenged/protested at the club level anyway.

So, what if all competitors in a class allowed a car in their class that was clearly an SM car, but didnt mind as the car was slower and not an issue?

Just curious here as well, as they might not be a threat to the cars in the class they are entering, but they COULD climb up the PAX ladder by way of just a better PAXed class for their car than SM.

Thanks.

- brian

Why do that? Just run the car in SM and if you want to compare times with your buddies in another class, compare times with your buddies. *shrug*

I mean, it's up to someone to protest you and if nobody is gonna, I guess it doesn't matter. But it just seems a whole lot better to put yourself in the "proper" class.


--Donnie

i agree with keeping the SCCA rules in tact.

if you want to change something that would be illegal, give it a shot. if nobody protests, you're golden. i doubt someone will protest b/c you swapped a steering wheel (but who knows)

im running in prepared, and i have no idea if i meet the min. weight requirement. never weighed the car, but im sure its pretty close. i kept telling chris brown (my codriver) that i was gonna protest him, but i dont think that would be a good idea for some reason.

SCCA has developed plenty (too many, IMO) of classes to accomodate just about any mods you want to do to your car.

Here's the way we've always advised competitors on questions of "class legality":

If you intend to run a car that you KNOW is not class-legal, it is incumbent upon you to advise the other competitors in your class of the out-of-spec condition, regardless of how innocuous you think it is. If they think it's no big deal, then everything's cool. If a competitor objects, then you're obligated to remedy it, appeal to the General Manager of the event, or move to the appropriate class. That's just good sportsmanship.

I don't believe anyone's gonna raise hell about airbags, steering wheels or funky shify-knobs, anyway. Poly bushings, intakes an' stuff like that... well, that's what SP, SM etc. are for, right?

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Brad

poly bushings and intakes are also legal in ST

IIRC, braided brake lines are legal in stock class and up.

Brian - what happens when the driver has a good day and wins, or finishes 2nd in class? Then do they protest? In a case like that, someone is likely to get a chip on their shoulder. No one cares much what motor mounts, steering wheel or hood the guy (or gal) running stock class uses if they finish near the bottom. It's when people win that cars will inevitably come under scrutiny. Last place Olympic runners don't get drug tested

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www.ncvw.org
1993 VW Corrado VR6 - DSP15 (RIP)
1986 MB 190E 2.3L 16v - STX (SOLD)
1997 BMW M3 3.2L - BS for now

Ah, very good point. Locally, I doubt I would protest, but I would bring up again through the course of the day that x,y, and z they DIDNT tell me about is illegal .

We all race on the gentleman's agreement to a point, and we all make certain assumptions that people have prepared their cars and have classed themselves accordingly. We all have a *basic* level of trust for eachother in that the class illegal 'unseen' not 'not easily seen' modifications for a car are not there. :shrug:

Anyway, after this threads discussion, I am beginning to be more of the school of thought that sticking with the rules is good, but locally, if a driver just had steering rack bushings on his car and was in stock class, I would not get on his case.

That's just me though.

- brian

I believe the rule is for 1991 and older cars in stock class. Otherwise, they are illegal in stock. Sean Minehart can run them on his 1991 MR2, but I can not have them on my 1993 MR2.

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Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

See its THOSE kinda rules that really chap me. Two virtually identical cars, two different standards. I realize that SS brake lines dont amount to a hill of beans but its just the principal. I also hear the SCCA has talked about doing away with the SS lines for older cars at some point.

The OTHER thing that chaps me is the fact that due to favorable wording in certain Factory Service Manuals some Stock drivers get camber bolts (Toyotas) and everyone else get nothing. It just seems fair to me that simple camber bolts should be legal to everyone. Note this is not an attack on ANYONE, just an observation.

Im not proposing that we allow this in THSCC, i'm just bitching in general. Dont listen to me, I have NEVER ran a stock class car just because I like to tinker and think the Stock class rules are kinda dumb (yes I know you have to draw the line SOMEWHERE).

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02 Focus SVT
STF 9

Crash bolts in stock class are legal for any car that lists them in the Factory Service Manual. If your car doesn't, bitch to the manufacturer. - AB

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'14 Toyota Sequoia Platinum 4WD
Super Westerfield Bros - '93 Integra - LeChump Du Jour
STX 93 - Scion FR-S