THSCC Forums

I know that, but it still just doesnt seem right that most manufactuers dont include them.

Like I said, I am just a jaded, hack driver rambling on...

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02 Focus SVT
STF 9

In the BGM for the MR2, the exact part number for the three bolts are listed. I can not just use any old bolt. What you would want is to open book to any camber bolt. The SCCA can push some of the legality off onto the manufacture in this case.

I wonder how many THSCC members are SCCA members? Hard to complain when we get all the benefit of the SCCA rules process for free

Jim
SCCA Member since 1999

As a Loooong time SCCA member I would suggest that criticizing a process and its results without knowing the background and the people isn't fair, especially if you are not an SCCA member.

Every rule in the book had a good logical reason at the time according to the VOLUNTEERS who made the decisions after following a thorough "get member input" process. In some cases, such as the grandfathered SS brake line rule, a compromise was made to minimize impact of a rule "tightening". In other cases, differences in model years are due to legal issues such as emission laws and/or safety laws.

As far as "minimal effect" of rules violations such as steering rack bushings keep in mind that a lot of you guys will brag about results down to a couple of decimal points in PAX. Don't then say that "my illegality isn't important".

Dick (with plenty of experience living with "inconvenient" rules in Stock and SP)

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Dick Rasmussen

FS 50 2018 Mustang GT

Kevin Hoff, you're never going to get the club to agree to officially recognizing certain things as non-performance-enhancing/ therefore acceptable. Some people don't give a crap (yes, that would include me), because they know it doesn't make a difference. Some people get a bug up their butts because it's not specifically allowed in the rules - so they'd probably even bitch about a WRX that doesn't have the "WRX" emblem on the back running in stock class - or in SP, where debadging also isn't allowed.

The generally-accepted rule is that if you're going to "cheat" then you don't tell anybody about it. (or that's what I was told, anyway... )

There will always be people who try to make you feel guilty for having something non-performance-enhancing on the car that isn't allowed, because they want to go strictly by the rules, and you're not. They'll say things like: "If you're just out to have fun, why not run in SM & compare times with the stock class you'd be in if you didn't remove your "WRX" emblem?" Despite the fact that the car is totally stock other than old, crusty R compounds...

Of course, I know a certain national champion who competed last year with a supposedly STX-illegal car, kicked my ass & everybody else's every time he showed up, and nobody ever protested him at a THSCC event. So yes, some people will bitch and moan about stuff if they know about it, and some will hold a grudge toward you, but if they don't feel strongly enough about it to protest, I say screw 'em.



Now, if somebody with an engine swap or lowering springs or something that actually made a measurable difference was running in a class that didn't allow it, I'd definitely say bump 'em.

I realize the complete and utter thouroughness of the Toyota crash bolts in the FSM. I also know that you can buy a bunch of them to pick an choose the "best" one. I looked at getting a MR2 back in the day, actually thought briefly about buying yours.

I also realize the can of worms the opening or closing of this rule would have, like I said it just seems unfair when I hear Celicas/MR2's getting 2+° of negative camber and Mary E told me all she could get was a puny -.5° in her Mini. Its just one of the many things you deal with when running stock, thats is why I choose to run a higher preparation class. I am shutting up now

Ryan
Former SCCA member, for a good reason

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02 Focus SVT
STF 9

I'm on the other side of Kevin Allen's fence. I scrutinize everything down to the clips I use to hold the plastic covers on the underside of my engine? Why? The rules say so, and if I don't follow them, I can get protested.

I honestly like the rules the way their written. Do I agree with every rule? Hell no, but I follow them none the less, and expect my competitors to do the same. I am anal about it because I care, but also to know that when I beat someone, I did it 100% within the rules, and can feel good about it. Missing badges, alternative bolts, etc. all seem insignificant but it can add up quickly.

Locally, it probably doesn't make a whole lot of difference, but as Dick correctly pointed out, we all have egos that measure our times down to the thousandth, and with differentials like that, I think even the little things make a difference.

Feel free to call me a rules Nazi, but I am confident that Jim P, Chuck & Donna, Donnie, Eric & Chris, Dick, Shawn, and anyone else that runs a consistent amount of National stuff would agree with me to some extent. The rules are what keeps things on a level (somewhat ) playing field. - AB

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'14 Toyota Sequoia Platinum 4WD
Super Westerfield Bros - '93 Integra - LeChump Du Jour
STX 93 - Scion FR-S

AH... then you have companies like Subaru that don't provide any crash bolts what-so-ever. You have to replace suspension pieces if they get too far out of tolerance . Even if they were 'unintentionally' bent...



- brian

For all of you rules Nazis out there, there is a proposal to allow alternative steering rack bushings in ST* and *SP next year. It's up for member comment. - AB

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'14 Toyota Sequoia Platinum 4WD
Super Westerfield Bros - '93 Integra - LeChump Du Jour
STX 93 - Scion FR-S

Interesting case in point. People nationally have been caught with 'bent' control arms that gave them 2+ degrees of camber on a stock car. They said the car was in an accident too. This is why the FSM is the bible for every car. - AB

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'14 Toyota Sequoia Platinum 4WD
Super Westerfield Bros - '93 Integra - LeChump Du Jour
STX 93 - Scion FR-S

In regard to things like camber bolts: Keep in mind that the actual class a car ends up in is influenced by its performance potential which includes availability of things like camber bolts, legal lowering (i.e. adjustable ride height Porsches, etc.). Cars like the infamous MR2 might be in a slower class if it weren't for the availability of legal camber bolts. Conversely it might be in a faster class if Toyota had given it other "advantages". It really is no different than what wheel widths, spring rates, rear sway bar size, horsepower, gearing, etc. that the manufacturer chooses to offer. The guys and gals on the Solo Board understand all this stuff and the tradeoffs involved.

Dick

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Dick Rasmussen

FS 50 2018 Mustang GT

I have an idea: Let's class drivers rather than cars. If you're a hack, you're an H-Stock driver. If you're the bestest driver in the world, you get A-Mod. And if you whine before, during or after an event either to another person or on the internet, event chairs get to hit you in the nuts with a ball-pean hammer at the next club meeting.

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Has no responsibility whatsoever.

Aiy!

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91 Jetta GLI STS/DSP 111
85 Porsche 944 ASP 11
http://www.blackforestindustries.com

Aye!

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Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder.

At the moment, to avoid anyone bitching about "oh, he beat me because he took off some badges" everyone pretty much has to scrutinize their cars to your level. The whole point of the post I made was that it would sure be nice to not have to do that locally. Given the just about unanimous dislike of my little proposal everyone will have to remain sticklers.

--Kevin H.

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2003 WRX (again!)

Ah, but what if, for example, you're using camber bolts in a class that allows camber plates? I could've gotten more/better camber adjustment with the plates than with the bolts (although I got the amount I wanted), but for $40 vs. $250...



(camber bolts were legalized the next year, so I had to find something else that was technically illegal to do )

So for a local, NON-SCCA club, should things like that really be scrutinized that closely?




And if you're not grown-up enough to accept negative feedback, go home and cry to your mommy about it.