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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 8:10 pm 
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jimpastorius wrote:
Any one ever run a NASA AX? No trailer, no display, no PA, no tent, no computer. They have a pickup, jumper cables, cones, timer, radios, scorecards and pens. For $30, you get 6-8 runs at VMP.

Sure. Ever run SCCA Solo2 Nationals? They have the nicest timing trailer in the land, great equipment, and the best processes around for running a silky smooth event. For $100, you get 6 runs.

So what's the difference? It's simpler than you might think. IMO, it's 2 things: the number of entrants, and caring about quality. At Nationals, they pump 1100+ people through the system; it takes them a week to do it, but people come anyway because it's the best competition in the country. A win there means something, and because of that, they feel the need to step up themselves. Not only can you be sure that the results will be right, but that they'll be timely, even if a rainstorm comes through.

How many folks were at the NASA event? 20? 30? So you had fun, and probably won by a mile. The win didn't mean anything, but that's OK 'cuz you weren't there for the competition. But if 50 folks showed up, I bet their tailgate timing crew couldn't handle it. 120 drivers? Forget it. Would they care enough about getting the results right to sort out all the errors and stick with it, calling up drivers after the event to track down times (since they all left early)? Maybe. And maybe you wouldn't care. But would you if it was your club and you were running for a season championship?

If you want to make a motion to cap our events at 50 drivers, we could probably handle moving back to a paper-based scoring system. It may or may not be more work for the T&S crew, but you can be sure that we'll get the results right. Oh, but the entry fee is going to have to double. Fixed expenses, you know.

Our systems, our "complexity", evolved out of necessity. Not your necessity as a driver, Jim, but of those who make the event run and have been consistently pressed to handle larger numbers of people and changing site requirements. IMO, the fact that on top of all that, we also choose to deliver a higher level of service (accuracy/timeliness), gets right to who we are as a club.

Of course some changes in process require a big change in infrastructure. As soon as we started using a computer, for example, we developed a concurrent need to keep that computer out of the rain and dust. We've proven that an EZ-up won't do it, so we needed something like a bus. But I submit there aren't too many "complexities" whose origins can't be traced back to a need to handle current event volumes or site requirements.

Now yes, most of our stuff is a lot nicer than is strictly needed to fulfill the minimum requirements. But I think you can trace that back to a membership full of people who make the extra effort to do the job right, because that's who they are.

There are some inconsistencies and impracticalities in your vision of a bare-bones event, Jim, though they would not be visible to you from a competitor viewpoint. I hope those who've faced these issues already will be chiming in here, as I've already taken well more than my share of the space in trying to provide the context.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:23 pm 
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While I understand where Jim is coming from, there is one HUGE pitfall IMHO. I sure as hell dont do this soley for showing, throwing some cones out and getting the hell out of dodge just as quick as I possibly can. As weird at it may seem, I kinda like hanging with everyone in THSCC. I have built friendships thru organizing and running this club. Honestly, I wouldnt want to change it a bit.

I need a tissue now.... :cry:

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 10:58 pm 
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It would sure be nice to not be _required_ as an event chair to be onsite all weekend. Other clubs build fun and safe courses without having to be at a site all weekend. It naturally leads to some VERY early mornings for the course designer and safety steward but it can be done no problem.

The other processes and complexity that THSCC has are, in my opinion, a Very Good Thing. Every time that I've been an event chair or course designer for another club (CCR, Highlands, and Subaru Challenge) my stress level has been through the roof. At Tarheel it's almost easier to be an event chair than head of timing or worker chief. This is a major plus for THSCC and something to be justifiably proud of. Sometime during the first event I co-chaired for THSCC I remarked in amazement to Mike W. that the event was running itself. This came from the detailed process that the club figured out over the years.

Eliminating needless complexity is fine, throwing away the things that make events fill weeks beforehand and make event staff's jobs easier is not.

--Kevin H.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 11:02 pm 
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Kevin Hoff wrote:
It would sure be nice to not be _required_ as an event chair to be onsite all weekend. Other clubs build fun and safe courses without having to be at a site all weekend. It naturally leads to some VERY early mornings for the course designer and safety steward but it can be done no problem.

The other processes and complexity that THSCC has are, in my opinion, a Very Good Thing. Every time that I've been an event chair or course designer for another club (CCR, Highlands, and Subaru Challenge) my stress level has been through the roof. At Tarheel it's almost easier to be an event chair than head of timing or worker chief. This is a major plus for THSCC and something to be justifiably proud of. Sometime during the first event I co-chaired for THSCC I remarked in amazement to Mike W. that the event was running itself. This came from the detailed process that the club figured out over the years.

Eliminating needless complexity is fine, throwing away the things that make events fill weeks beforehand and make event staff's jobs easier is not.

--Kevin H.


Well said, it's good to get some insight from folks that have done it the other way in recent times.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 11:43 pm 
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Kevin Hoff wrote:
It would sure be nice to not be _required_ as an event chair to be onsite all weekend. Other clubs build fun and safe courses without having to be at a site all weekend. It naturally leads to some VERY early mornings for the course designer and safety steward but it can be done no problem.


As 1 of the 3 AX VP's, if you wanna chair the event, and think you can setup the morning of, I am all for giving it a try. I am like you, I dont want to be in L'burg/Sanford/Danville ALL weekend. We just better have our ducks in a row, but its certainly not impossible.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:00 am 
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I was at that NASA autox, too. I loved it. It was simple, just the basic stuff needed to have a fun autox day, and the course was one of the most fun I'd seen all year. The people were nice, and the atmosphere was extremely relaxed. There was some tough competition (no, Carl - Jim actually lost to his co-driver :shock: ). I had a great time.

Would I like to do all of our events that way? Hell, no. It worked for them because they didn't have 150 people running. But it was kinda like running a night series event again, and it made me wish we still had those... :(


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:17 pm 
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UH OH I agree with Mike Whitney on something.
Image

Image

We need more beer. :D
Old Foggey mode on There was a time when the club had 4 kegs at the Saturday night party of a two day Auto-X. :beerbuds: This was before we were worried about liability.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:05 pm 
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Location: MWI/MUI Kubota FTW
i am probably treading somewhere that i don't belong, but the complexities that you all question are something i would expect. why would you want to put on an event with subpar equipment? why would you want new members (or potential new members) to feel like they attended a mickey mouse event? if you all were using stop watches and paper results i would not have known the difference, but i can appreciate the complexity and efficiency i percieved by what i participated in. i got my ass whooped in more ways than just the times i ran. but i drove away anxious to return. autox may not be the path i choose in years to come, but i will take from it all that i can.

events closer to the triangle would be nice, but that may be the price of doing this. once a month isn't bad IMO, but still i will struggle to get anywhere by 7:30 am unless i come in the night before.

Jim, i thought your course sucked. but i should be allowed to say that because i finished next to last. thing is i'm guessing there will be many more course that suck in my future.

i can understand the nostalgia for a smaller event. someday i might feel nostalgic about the days when only 120 or so cars showed up. member only events might be something to consider. as i see it some of the people that showed at l'burg will never join the club, never help clean up, and certainly never give a shit about how well or how poorly an event ran. but then there are the few that will and that is what a "club" is built on. long live rock, be it dead or alive. 8)


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 10:28 pm 
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I have but two points to add to this already pointy thread.
1) Not all of our members are in the Triangle. Some of us live close to the outlying, provincial sites and appreciate the extra 45+ mins of sleep. Plus there are not many other alternatives for AX in NC.
2) Part of the attraction of motorsports is technology and precision. Many club members are in "high-tech" fields and will naturally seek hobbies consistent with this perspective. Some of us are veritable Luddites in our day-to-day (myself included), but still find great value in the technical attention to detail that our events have come to embody.
In just 8 years of AX I have competed(?) in a carbeurated, golden disco-70's tech Porsche 914, a pre-computer 1982 911, now a dead-reliable and A/C equiped '99 Miata, and I may bring out my 2003 M5. Trust me, regardless of what the France family and their solid axle, carbuerated(I don't think I can even spell that any more) rolling billboard taxi cabs tell you, technology good. Paper stickers bad.
Bob Nyberg CS-50


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