Communicating run times and penalties

MikeWhitney · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm **Posts:** 4724

MilesBeam wrote:

Mike- thanks for the analysis and clearing this up. I'm so glad that no one is upset with Brian.

Regarding the turns this thread has taken, post event analysis is a good thing. It is how we learn. We need to continue to encourage people to express their opinions on what went well, and what did not about an event.
It is vital to the long term success of any organization- get feedback, analyze, take appropriate action. Back to the topics of event analysis-

Regarding getting times, the radio is a great way for everyone in general to know what's going on with the event. It is an appreciated improvement and I really am thankful to Rob for all the work he's done to improve so many of our electronics. The radio should not be a standalone solution to get times to the drivers though. It certainly won't help cars without radios, and I learned this weekend that may be a higher number than I would have thought.

That being said, Dick and I found that there was a dead spot right after the finish where the radio just flat didn't pick up the signal. I heard several other people say the same thing. Some cars had this trouble, some did not. Maybe my 15 year old radio isn't working at peak efficiency.

We don't need an expensive or high tech solution for this. One simple answer is a worker, at the finish line, with a radio that can get the times and write them down on a sticky- which is handed to the driver. Somebody, possibly the announcer, could call the times out on the handheld radio. He would use a separate frequency that communicates just with the finish worker, so it doesn't interfere with course working.

We've done this at other events in the past, including Sanford and Laurinburg. That may have been what Brian was referring to in his original post when he mentioned sticky notes with exact times on them when we finish.

It works great. The only added cost is a few pads of sticky notes and an ink pen and maybe an extra pair of radios.

Miles

Hey Miles - start a new thread about "what's a better way to get your times and cones at the finish". It's important enough that I'd like to see it handled separately from this train wreck

I agree it's a topic that could use some (intelligent) discussion now that we are using more remote finishes. The problem with *most* suggestions is that it will be a real hit on the number of workers required. IMO any solution needs to be automated. Or maybe one worker max. Asking for volunteers ain't going to cut it either.

This could be solved as simply as adding a remote finish FM speaker + automated time reading from the computer on the PA. Duh, I already said that...

Scott Johnson · **Posted:** Thu Mar 24, 2005 1:18 pm

I'll agree with everything that Mike said.

Keep in mind this weekend all the announcers were volunteers (maybe we let David have it as a work assignment since he did so well). Still, that leaves 3/4 of the event with volunteers, often that volunteer was David.

Even with people volunteering to announce, we had problems with workers not showing up and showing up late. If we add 2-3 more workers to the equation per heat, that means we are short 3-4 workers per heat.

If I was in a position of not having a radio, I would have looked for a friendly face nearby and asked, "Hey, can you get my time for me?" THe answer is likely *always* going to be yes. If they are old like Charlie Guthrie, I might have a pen and paper handy so he can write it down

That solves the problem, promotes socializing at the events and might even make you a new friend. That's why we run these events. We are a *social* club as well as a car club.

We're open to suggestions on how to fix this. We were aware of the problem at the event (and before it), but don't currently have a very viable solution. Simply pointing it out to us doesn't help any, however, a constructive proposal on how to fix the problem does help (like your suggestion of having someone radio the results to the post-it person at the finish).

Unfortunately, for a lot of suggestions, we'll point out why it won't work without solving additional problems.

Scott

PS: The big display will run all day hooked up to a 12V battery and it's language/connector is a 7 pin RS232 serial port. The JACS box outputs the signal. All somone needs to do is come up with a wireless link in the middle.

Graham Jagger · **Joined:** Fri Aug 29, 2003 12:53 am **Posts:** 1718

Comments removed as this was copied from another thread. Gj.

David Teague · **Posted:** Thu Mar 24, 2005 1:44 pm

Actually I worked the gate as my Work assignment in the morning... and since I am soooo good at running my mouth I figured I would put it to good use.. of course I was rambling some much at the start of the even I forgot to announce the first few times hehehe.

No I am probably going to say something that might not be too popular but some people do need to remember that while our events are run by volunteers we do have paying customers and they should be able to ask questions about how and why things were done at the event with out being jumped on. I know some of you read more into Brian's post due to past comments and talking to him during the event however is first post that started this thread was very non critical (IMHO) and as Miles stated do not see why it should have gotten this far out of whack.

As far as the finishing times is there not a way to setup the a timer display at the finish also? I though we had 2 displays at one point or am I incorrect on that. Also I never got my times as I have no antenna on my car and I could not pick up the radio till I was mid paddock, so either a display at the finish or Mike automated time announcer with a remote speaker at the finish would be great.

Vincent Keene · **Posted:** Thu Mar 24, 2005 2:10 pm

scottjohnson wrote:

We're open to suggestions on how to fix this. We were aware of the problem at the event (and before it), but don't currently have a very viable solution.

I think Mike's automated solution would be a start. We can add an additional remote speaker just after the finish so people w/o a radio can hear their times. I've got two freebie speakers donated to the club already.

Getting workers to report (on time!) is already a problem. Doing w/o four of them for announcing isn't a good solution.

We will get it worked out folks...stay tuned.

Chris Brown · **Posted:** Thu Mar 24, 2005 2:31 pm

scottjohnson wrote:

PS: The big display will run all day hooked up to a 12V battery and it's language/connector is a 7 pin RS232 serial port. The JACS box outputs the signal. All somone needs to do is come up with a wireless link in the middle.

http://www.brgprecision.com/arc67.html

I called this company and spoke to one of the sales people...i don't think i was able to relay what we are looking for exactly, so if someone with knowledge of the t&s hardware/software wanted to give them a buzz, it might turn out good.

i see on the web site that they do option wireless remotes, but i'm not sure what their range is.

Carl Fisher · **Posted:** Thu Mar 24, 2005 2:58 pm

scottjohnson wrote:

PS: The big display will run all day hooked up to a 12V battery and it's language/connector is a 7 pin RS232 serial port. The JACS box outputs the signal. All somone needs to do is come up with a wireless link in the middle.

Mightn't it be easier if the course finished at the bus? Then the display is there already. If we are using the wireless timer, that means the start is distant, and the starter will need to call cars, and the AXware operator won't be able to have a big staging list, but that's all.

On a related topic, I personally think the wireless timer is a great tool to have in our arsenal when circumstances make it impractical to put the start and the finish within a few hundred feet of each other. We've used it a few times now and I think it's clear that it works well. But, as we are seeing here, its use creates other problems. The ideal situation for both drivers and Timing & Scoring workers is for both the start and finish to be within easy sight (reading distance) from the bus. So I think we should not be looking for opportunities to use the wireless timer, but rather bring it out only when we need it.

MarcusMcRae · **Posted:** Thu Mar 24, 2005 3:07 pm

scottjohnson wrote:

If I was in a position of not having a radio, I would have looked for a friendly face nearby and asked, "Hey, can you get my time for me?" THe answer is likely *always* going to be yes. If they are old like Charlie Guthrie, I might have a pen and paper handy so he can write it down

That solves the problem, promotes socializing at the events and might even make you a new friend. That's why we run these events. We are a *social* club as well as a car club.

Using the radio to get your times works. Reach over and turn up the volume at the end of your run. If you are just anti-social,well....

MikeWhitney · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm **Posts:** 4724

scottjohnson wrote:

PS: The big display will run all day hooked up to a 12V battery and it's language/connector is a 7 pin RS232 serial port. The JACS box outputs the signal. All somone needs to do is come up with a wireless link in the middle.

Well, since we're just doing the timing discussion here...

Here's what we need to set up the display far away. 100mW would be dandy - 3 mile line-of-site range.

http://www.aerocomm.com/Devices/link.htm

Looks like it's about $400.

http://www.mouser.com/index.cfm?handler ... tid=694615

(Not recommending we buy it, just throwing it out there for discussion)

Vincent Keene · **Posted:** Thu Mar 24, 2005 4:44 pm

MikeWhitney wrote:

scottjohnson wrote:

PS: The big display will run all day hooked up to a 12V battery and it's language/connector is a 7 pin RS232 serial port. The JACS box outputs the signal. All somone needs to do is come up with a wireless link in the middle.

Well, since we're just doing the timing discussion here...

Here's what we need to set up the display far away. 100mW would be dandy - 3 mile line-of-site range.

http://www.aerocomm.com/Devices/link.htm

Looks like it's about $400.

http://www.mouser.com/index.cfm?handler ... tid=694615

(Not recommending we buy it, just throwing it out there for discussion)

I like it, but I have a stupid question. Would you need two? A transmitter and a receiver?

Dustin Fredrickson · **Posted:** Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:36 pm

Carl Fisher wrote:

scottjohnson wrote:

PS: The big display will run all day hooked up to a 12V battery and it's language/connector is a 7 pin RS232 serial port. The JACS box outputs the signal. All somone needs to do is come up with a wireless link in the middle.

Mightn't it be easier if the course finished at the bus? Then the display is there already. If we are using the wireless timer, that means the start is distant, and the starter will need to call cars, and the AXware operator won't be able to have a big staging list, but that's all.
...

What he said. I haven't worked timing and scoring which is why I didn't make this suggestion, for fear of getting ridiculed (by my own wife, nonetheless). But, would having the bus at the finish be such a bad problem for T&S? It certainly seems to fix some other issues.

If the queue is the issue, maybe we queue up still at the bus, then run the cars down the taxiway to the start line just before they need to run. A little more complex because the queue is essentially bigger, but not too bad (I would think).

Chuck Frank · **Posted:** Thu Mar 24, 2005 6:07 pm

IMHO not using one worker per heat to announce (a position I've continually said was an important one) because some others don't appear on time or at all for their work assignments leaving us short workers is a backwards reason kinda like kicking the dog because the cat tore up the curtains!
Certainly the announcer could do double duty as worker check in person. As the B grid is starting into their second run he can check to see who has failed to check in and start calling them by name. Anyone who shows up after their assignment has started without being excused in advance (sh** happens, but you should know that you have a problem before it's time and check in anyhow so it's known and can be worked around) loses their fastest run! THAT will get them to work on time!
Asking a friend to get your times is not a realistic scenario at places like Laurenburg where it's difficult to see who is finishing to know what time belongs to who. I know I wanted to catch some other's times Sunday but missed them because I didn't realize until too late that they had finished.

RobLupella · **Posted:** Thu Mar 24, 2005 6:34 pm

Dustin Fredrickson wrote:

Carl Fisher wrote:

scottjohnson wrote:

PS: The big display will run all day hooked up to a 12V battery and it's language/connector is a 7 pin RS232 serial port. The JACS box outputs the signal. All somone needs to do is come up with a wireless link in the middle.

Mightn't it be easier if the course finished at the bus? Then the display is there already. If we are using the wireless timer, that means the start is distant, and the starter will need to call cars, and the AXware operator won't be able to have a big staging list, but that's all.
...

What he said. I haven't worked timing and scoring which is why I didn't make this suggestion, for fear of getting ridiculed (by my own wife, nonetheless). But, would having the bus at the finish be such a bad problem for T&S? It certainly seems to fix some other issues.

If the queue is the issue, maybe we queue up still at the bus, then run the cars down the taxiway to the start line just before they need to run. A little more complex because the queue is essentially bigger, but not too bad (I would think).

When Phil and I did the inaugural wireless trial in Sanford, our original idea was to have the finish at the bus. It was changed so that there were no issues with T&S. This is why we had the "Post It"s handed out. We thought of having the lineup by the bus and the drive down the taxiway to the end of the runway.

Graham and I may try this at L'burg in June. I want to set up a really tight, short Miata course that will fry Z06 tires :wink:

Graham wants to set up a course that starts at one end of the runway, has one gate at the first crossover, and finishes in the Golden Knights area. 6 cones total. Should not take long to set up, uses almost no chalk, and is easy for Corvette drivers to find.

Either way, we can maybe make a course that keeps the sweeper, but doesn't mimic a version of the same Laurinburg course.

We will probably end up with something in the middle. If it works into a 9 page forum thread it will be a success. :shock:

shawnwhipple · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 6:28 pm **Posts:** 603

I have to agree with Chuck on this one. I honestly see no reason why we don't have annoucer as a worker position? I know it's an easy job but I still think it's important. A little history here. We ALWAYS had annoucers until Adam took over as worker coordinator. He didn't think that annoucers worked enough to qualify as a worker position so there wasn't anyone assigned to that spot. There may have been a good argument to having no annoucer before but now with the addition of a working FM transmitter and the THSCC radio net the announcer would be more effective in both getting times too folks and keeping the event running.

As an added benefit a good annoucer can really add to the enjoyment of events in my mind. Clever comments about driving styles added at the end of regular announcements always add a lighter fun touch to events. I think you will lose a lot if we go to a boring computer reading times. Although we could always program some random insults that would be read any time Mike Whitney finishes.

As a solution to the getting your times issue, how about this (I think Miles may have suggested already) It takes 2 people per shift. 1 is the annoucer the 2nd person sits somewhere close to the finish in a position that he can clearly hear the annoucer on a cheap FM radio. The job is easier for the post it guy now because all he has to write is what the announcer says not keep up with starting order and cone counts. We would only need this for events with remote finishes. For regular events you only need an annoucer.

Shawn

Donnie Barnes · **Posted:** Thu Mar 24, 2005 8:22 pm

I agree that an announcer is important. But that still doesn't help for cases where the announcer misses you or you don't have a radio in your car. I don't care much for the "automated" announcer as I agree with Shawn on the human aspect of things.

That said, I'm sure AXware will drive a printer. Why not get a serial roll printer and set that up? You'd only need wireless for it (which is possible, though not cheap) in cases where you were using a wireless finish *and* the return lane didn't come somewhat near the bus. I still think you'd want a worker to tear the printouts off and hand them to the proper car, but it would *never* be more than one worker.

The reason we had an event where two workers couldn't even keep timeslips in sync was because the poor workers were a mile from the actual finish and couldn't see the cars as they did finish (you'd have two or three or even four cars coming back down the pipe *and* you'd have two or three or four on course with one waiting to start). I believe that's the event where they *were* going to put the bus at the finish, but then T&S wouldn't have been able to queue up the start like we're used to. Imagine if T&S would have had the problems that the finish folks had! The right choice was made there.

But a printer at that same spot that is printing car numbers with times just means the person tearing them off gives the next one to the next car. If something were to get out of sync (like a car skips the finish and doesn't come through the timer area), it's still easy to *look* at the car for the number and class and give them the right slip.

And I don't believe those printers are very expensive and should be able to run via RS-232, which would give a reasonable distance capability from the bus. Wireless RS-232 is available, though it isn't terribly cheap.

--Donnie

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