Which run format do you like the best?

Aaron Buckley · **Posted:** Thu Oct 02, 2003 11:25 am

Choose one.... Thanks, AB

MikeWhitney · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm **Posts:** 4724

I voted for the split-run format. Here are the pros as I see it. Others feel free to add their arguments for the all-at-once format:

Get to talk trash and compare times over lunch
Easier to share rides with a co-driver
Time to think things over and ride with other drivers before trying it again
In my opinion, more opportinities to improve!
Two chances at weather/course conditions.

And a big one...

We can decide at lunch how many total runs to do. With the all-at-once we need to decide before running and have no flexibility in case something goes wrong (weather, etc)

I am happy to support what the club in general wants, but in my opinion, this is a social club aimed at having fun and improving drivers - the split run format has always accomplished these goals better than running them all at once.

I do understand the reasons to run all runs at once, but I don't see those reasons as consistent with what this club is about.

Flame away

Scott Johnson · **Posted:** Thu Oct 02, 2003 12:35 pm

I voted the same as Mike for similar reasons. I *do* see many benefits to the other way...

If we were to go with the "all at once" format, then I vote for doing it the VMSC way and assiging car numbers and run order, why not make it really simple then. There does seem to be more time for lunch if we don't split it. There also seems to be less worker confusion.

Scott

jimpastorius · **Posted:** Thu Oct 02, 2003 12:38 pm

I am just going to play devil's advocate :twisted:

here. I have no objection to the format used by THSCC or Triad. I get to run the all-at-once format with other clubs.

- The all-at-once (AAO) format is the most efficient in getting most cars and drivers through. Allowing either more runs or more drivers.
- Is easier for worker changeover. There is no confusion on when you work and when you drive.
- Allows more social time. In the split format you are in the grid or on course for 3/4 of the event. In the AAO format you are in grid or course for 1/2 the event.
- Allows for more instruction time. See above.
- Allows more observation time, See above.
- Allows for more ride alongs. If you are competitive you only have one run to throw away taking a rider along, the first one, in the split format. Your second and fourth runs are too important. Only those runs are the tires even coming close to their optimal working temps. In the AAO format your third and fourth runs are the important ones. So you can have a rider in 1 and 2 and not waste too many runs.
- The AAO provides better feedback on any subtle changes you want to make to the car. If you make a subtle (notice it is subtle) change after your 2nd run in the split, you have add another variable, cold tires, on the next run.
- AAO is fair to all competitors. You run and work the same amount. Course workers for the 3rd and 4th shift can end up working during the hottest time of the day and working more runs than the 1st and 2nd shift.
- Warm tires are like a warm woman, soft, supple and thrilling.

If you are in the first run group in AAO, it is a little bit of a disadvantage with cooler temps and the possibility of a dirty course. But you do have the freshest look at the course.

I would rather my driving do the talking and not my mouth :wink:

Scott Johnson · **Posted:** Thu Oct 02, 2003 1:03 pm

jimpastorius wrote:

If you are in the first run group in AAO, it is a little bit of a disadvantage with cooler temps and the possibility of a dirty course. But you do have the freshest look at the course.

I'd call it a huge disadvantage.

MikeWhitney · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm **Posts:** 4724

jimpastorius wrote:

- The all-at-once (AAO) format is the most efficient in getting most cars and drivers through. Allowing either more runs or more drivers.

I have heard this mentioned a few times. Maybe I'm stupid - but how does it create more time? If we're launching cars every 25-30 seconds, how can any changes to the format or order of the event make it more efficient? Doesn't matter.

The split group format certainly requires people to bring their cars to grid twice rather than once, but that does nothing to the launch frequency, which is the limiting factor. And I don't hear people complaining about having to bring their cars up twice. Would anyone like to comment on this?

Chuck Frank · **Posted:** Thu Oct 02, 2003 1:32 pm

I vote with Mike and Scott for the split format. As far as using it for learning, I think SF is far better, especially for two drivers. We usually ride with each other in the AM, then alone in the PM. That gives us time to digest and critique our first runs, decide if adjustments helped or not, we've each had two runs to decide if the car worked better or worse for both or for one and not the other.
If we've had a problem with a particular area of the course we can observe other runs before trying it again. It's far less hectic in grid so you feel much more willing to help others. Novices especially get to see more runs to learn from, if they are in the first run group in AAO, they run and it's all over with before they have any chance to understand what they were supposed to do and may be completely dismayed. With the SF if they get lost or heavily overdrive their first two runs, there's time to take them out on course either as a ride along or as a spectator to present instruction that they can then use to attemp to improve their afternoon runs instead of having to wait for another event or never return.
I also agree with Scott that a dirty course, especially at Sanford is a HUGE disadvantage! If I have to run AAO in the first group at Sanford, I wouldn't bother going...

I also think the SF make it feel like I attended an "event" rather than the "slam, bam, thank you maam" feeling I get with running first group in the AAO fromat. We've gotten up at an ungodly hour of the AM, driven a couple hours to the event site, worked hard to get ready, and in ~ 1 1/2 hrs it's all over except for having to sit around all the rest of the day for working and trophy presentation.

Vincent Keene · **Posted:** Thu Oct 02, 2003 3:03 pm

I voted for the split format. The one plus for me with the AAO format is the tires get changed back sooner and we're ready to leave early. However like Chuck said what do I do for the rest of the time? It's especially worse if you run first.

The split format works better for our two driver car IMO. It's more swapping of numbers and moving of the seat, but I still prefer it.

Personally I think the AAO format does cut down on the social aspect a bit. Having time in between allows me to ride and/or talk to others about the course and their approach. If I run first that's pretty much out the window.

Also I like to go and watch others approach to a particular corner I seemed to have difficulty with. I learn a lot sometimes from watching the really fast people's line.

I see good a bad points for both options. THSCC isn't a democracy though is it? Let the Prez decide.

Patrick Wellenius · **Posted:** Thu Oct 02, 2003 3:40 pm

I'm for the split format. Yes, I'm a noob still, so I'm not speaking from tons of experience, but I feel like I get more out of the day driving in two heats vs. one. Between heats you get to see others drive the course, ride along, talk with others and pick up pointers. I'm not at the point yet where making any subtle adjustments to my car will greatly improve my time. The biggest improvements need to be made in how I drive, and that benefits more from the break in between. Plus, it definitely seems to add to the social atmosphere.

jimpastorius · **Posted:** Thu Oct 02, 2003 4:37 pm

[quote="MikeWhitney]I have heard this mentioned a few times. Maybe I'm stupid - but how does it create more time? If we're launching cars every 25-30 seconds, how can any changes to the format or order of the event make it more efficient? Doesn't matter.
[/quote]

Okay these are just theories :twisted:

Less confussion gives the appearance of a greater through put.
Warmer tires leads to quicker times and better overlap
Better focus leads to quicker times and better overlap
Less delay at the start line because of better focus.

Based upon above, you may save 3 seconds per driver on course and 5 seconds at the start line. So every run is actually reduced by 8 seconds. So for every three cars, you get a free run.

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Thu Oct 02, 2003 4:53 pm

I voted for the SF, but don't have a huge dislike for the AAO.

I tend to like the organizational easiness (grid once, easier to deal with worker changes and to know when you need to work) of the AAO, but don't like the (as Chuck says) "slam, bam, thank you maam".

It can be thrilling to do them back to back, but you feel like your day is over much faster and you don’t have as much time to contemplate between runs.

I am curious as to what format is the norm (if any) around the nation and why?

Phil Wehman · **Posted:** Thu Oct 02, 2003 5:28 pm

I guess I'm in the minority that likes AAO a little better. I like to have the runs fresh in my mind - it's easier to remember the little things that I want to correct. I was in the first run group the last 2 events so had cold, dirty, and wet pavement, but was very pleased with my times. For me, I think consistency of conditions was more important than watching others run in those events.

Except for the TIR and NOV paxed classes, track and weather conditions shouldn't matter since the classes run together with same advantages or disadvantages.

FWIW, the two clubs I ran with in Indiana both used the AAO format.

Chuck Frank · **Posted:** Thu Oct 02, 2003 5:45 pm

Up to regionals, it's all over the board with each club favoring their own sometimes "unique" method. I think it has to do with familiarity breeds comfort, a small core group always in charge of the events, or the setup of their timing system. I know of several instances where a format is used simply because it's different from a rival club's system, and heaven forbid doing anything the way "they" do. The format I most dislike is the one VMSC has been using where you run by chosen numerical order regardless of class. Changing conditions can easily favor one run group over another, and you have no idea where you stand in the results until the event is completely over. They use(d) that format because of their previous manually recorded timing system, they are changing over to new software that will allow them to run by class or random # order.
The Divisionals we've been to tend to mimic the national tour format, because that is just one level down and supposed to be preparation for Nationals.
The National tours and Championship are run groups by class format and 3 runs AAO each day of two days on two different courses, your quickest time on each course are added together for your total time. Since GS is almost always in the first run group, I feel we are usually at a disadvantage at nationals, having to be the course cleaners and find the line for everyone else.

Phil Wehman · **Posted:** Thu Oct 02, 2003 8:12 pm

Quote:

Since GS is almost always in the first run group, I feel we are usually at a disadvantage at nationals, having to be the course cleaners and find the line for everyone else.

Since you don't compete against other classes at Nationals, and classes run together (generally same conditions), where is there an advantage or disadvantage? I agree that it could be irritating not to have a clean course, but as long as all of your class is in the same boat, what does it matter?

Emmie Fisher · **Posted:** Thu Oct 02, 2003 11:01 pm

Quote:

Based upon above, you may save 3 seconds per driver on course and 5 seconds at the start line. So every run is actually reduced by 8 seconds. So for every three cars, you get a free run.

However, don't forget to account for required downtown between Heats 2 & 3 for afternoon drivers to have a couple of refresher course walks.

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