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I figured this question was worth a thread all by itself. It has begun to be discussed in a few other places, but it's down about page 4 in the other thread buried in a lot of other topics.

To save some typing, let me list some of the pros and cons of the Greenville site:

Pros of Greenville site:
- secured, fenced area. Makes for easier spectator control.
- no hard objects in the middle of the course (though some grates to avoid)
- reasonable driving distance (1 hr 15 min from Raleigh beltline)
- small lot makes for great viewing of entire course
- lights!! means possibilities for night events, 12/24 hr events, etc.
- provide some variety, square lot (not airport) means different types of courses to run

Cons of Greenville Site
- small lot!
- multi lap format may be challenging for novices
- close proximity to buildings, fences, perimeter light poles, and some parked cars.
- tough to obtain desired overlap and get 30 sec launch intervals

Still under debate:
- grip:
The first run group was like driving on ice. But the course was still wet and temps were still in the high 40s. We all know it got better as they day went on. What we don't really know is how good it will be in the summer. Yet, judging by how much it improved in the afternoon over the morning, I think it should be quite good.
- tire wear:
I haven't heard anybody mention this yet, but the site seemed to be easy on tires, at least for me. I got over 20 runs and didn't notice any significant tire wear.

Future possibilities: The officers and I have discussed the possibility of allowing the course to wrap around the building and into some of the front lot. One option is to continue the course from where we finished Sunday by the building and then let it "sweep"around to the right into the parking lot, take a pivot cone to the left and then finish. But would we have to finish there? Why not let it go even further and then finish near the front gate where we entered? The grid and pits could all be outside the fence. Yes, this presents other problems and challenges, but I wanted to let you know that we may have other options for course designs.

Food for thought.....

Miles

Bet ya cant guess which one I voted for?

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02 Focus SVT
STF 9

Same here.

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Vincent Keene
'06 Ford Mustang GT (track rat)
'15 Dodge Charger R/T (yeah, it's got a HEMI!)
'07 Ford Fusion SE (205,000 miles and counting)
'98 Chevy Z-24 (retired)
'93 Acura Integra (Team SWB 24HOL Car)

You forgot a major con;

COST

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91 Jetta GLI STS/DSP 111
85 Porsche 944 ASP 11
http://www.blackforestindustries.com

Its similar to Rockingham from what I have seen, so its not a big con

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02 Focus SVT
STF 9

We make money on either site, so what is the point? Sanford is no bargain either. The only thing going for that site, we drive by it to Laurinburg or Rockingham

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Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

The point is value for the clubs money, and that's a pretty big point.

Our 2 newest sites, Rockingham and this one, are the most expensive we have. I'd also say they are the 2 least valuable sites, in terms of layout, distance, and grip. As for Sanford, when the motorcycle group is there we pay half the normal rate.

For a quick rundown sanford is either 2 or 3x the cost of Laurinburg, depending on the motorcylces beign there. Rockingham and the Greenville site are 4 and 5x the cost of Laurinburg.

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91 Jetta GLI STS/DSP 111
85 Porsche 944 ASP 11
http://www.blackforestindustries.com

If we take cost out of the equation, then Greenville is to me better than Rockingham. If cost is an issue and it is a question of Rockingham or Greenville, Greenville wins for me.



If these sites are too expensive for the club to afford, then we need to look at either raising dues or event fees, cutting expenses, or only running at Laurinburg and Sanford when the motorcycles are there. Or actively soliciting more "paying" customers such as the Viper club or the Electric Vehicle challenge.

Just my $.02

IMHO, that's the real question.

If your motivation for not going back is grip, then you are just a whiner, that's part of autocross at times, and it's a problem for everyone. AWD or not, autocrosses are won in the turns, and AWD has no inherent advantage in a turn (unless you think extra weight is an advantage?).

Can we actually cover the cost of a regular season event in Greenville, or will we be subsidizing it with other events?

Cost equals:

Site fee
Site Insurance fee
All other fees (amoritized over all events - officer insurance, etc.)
Trophy fees

I'd really like to see us pay the bills next season without charging more for events - and without running too many/any events at a loss.

Scott

We've already raised dues for 2005. We're trying to hold the line on event fees (we're already the most expensive club in the region).

Some of us are actively trying to come up with ways to cut expenses without diminshing the quality of our events. Consider what many of you chose in the "trophy" poll. That wasn't just to make the VP's jobs easier, however, it seemed that the membership seems to like the "stuff" that makes an event cost more, but has NO effect on the actual autocross portion of the event.

Sanford is trying to eliminate the "motorcycle" discount last I heard, so that may not be an advantage.

Scott

It has nothing to do with grip or AWD. I have set FTD down there in the MR2. And the last time I checked, it does not have AWD.

I would rather run at Danville more times than Sanford. The wider runway at Danville provides more flexibility in course design. Plus the "grip" is better. Personally, I do not think the grip is all that bad at Rockingham. You have to adjust to the site, that is part of the challenge of this sport. The same theory about the heat of the day and later runs apply to almost any site.

Everyone has their favorite site. It is usually the site they feel they run the best at.

I do not think we have ever lost money at any site. That includes the initial RBC Center events. Remember those...tiny lot and very, very expensive.

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Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

I would not be surprised if we didn't lose money at Greenville this time. Granted we did have a low entry limit and the weather was terrible. We only had 55 people show up. Not all of the 55 people paid due to officer status, event chairs, bus drivers, etc.

If 50 people paid then that is only $1000. I doubt that covered the cost of the event.

Obviously if we had our usual 120 limit we would have had a better chance at covering our costs.

Just for the record the Greenville site costs the same as the RBC did, and Rockingham wants to increse our price to the same amount.

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91 Jetta GLI STS/DSP 111
85 Porsche 944 ASP 11
http://www.blackforestindustries.com

And the point is? Are you suggesting we eliminate those two sites and run at only the two airports because they are cheaper? Since you are hung up on money, what is the required net from an event to justify us using a site? Is the money the driving principle for conducting an autocross event?

I guess the thought of going back to VMP is out of the question.

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Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

I really didn't want to see this turn into a thread on site costs..... so maybe I can wrap up that train of thought so we can get back on point with the discussion.

I KNOW what all the sites cost because I usually end up negotiating the fees. I'm not going to post here on a semi public forum what all our sites cost, but I will say this:

The final site fee for a "production" event has not yet been finalized with Greenville. What we are willing to pay depended on how this past weekend's event went.

For purposes of choosing where to go, you should consider Greenville, Sanford, Rockingham, and Danville all about equivalent to each other. VMP is a little more. They aren't identical, but the cost difference isn't enough in past years to make it a reason to go one place over another. Laurinburg is still our cheapest site by far. Yes, Rockingham wants to go up considerably on price, and the tentative schedule made by this year's officers for next year did not put Rockingham on the schedule as a first priority for an autocross. Rockingham is also VERY, VERY difficult to schedule for autocrosses.



None of the above is true. We paid two fees to RBC- one was for the full day event and one was for the night series. The full day event cost for an RBC event was much more than what we paid for Greenville this past weekend. Now... what we pay for Greenville in the future, if we go back, remains to be seen, but should be less than RBC's full day event cost. Rockingham's proposal was to raise the site cost to significantly more than what RBC was asking for a full day event. We never said "yes" to that one.

I'd like to see this thread get off the cost subject and go back to discussing other pros and cons of this site. Save the discussion on club finances for another thread!

We ran this weekend's event at a "discount site rate", so we should have come fairly close to breaking even.

Miles
Site Guy...