2005 Classing decisions by the SCCA

Wes Eargle · **Joined:** Mon Oct 27, 2003 9:47 am **Posts:** 3683

Adam Ligon wrote:

Tom Hoppe wrote:

All I know is that 425HP, -Tom

He meant 425 BHP --> Bling horsepower.

Tom Hoppe · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 10:16 am **Posts:** 387

Right now with no tuning and just a turboback with a cat we're at 300WHP which = ~340-350HP.

We have headers, intake, IC, catless, pulleys, and full engine mgmt with tuning left

I see 75 more HP in our future.

-Tom

Adam Ligon · **Posted:** Tue Oct 12, 2004 10:41 am

Tom Hoppe wrote:

Right now with no tuning and just a turboback with a cat we're at 300WHP which = ~340-350HP.

We have headers, intake, IC, catless, pulleys, and full engine mgmt with tuning left

I see 75 more HP in our future.

-Tom

Oh i wish you had <dr evil> 1 million<dr evil> WHP

It would make the beatdowns you deliever muck easier on the old ego

Chris Brown · **Posted:** Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:06 am

so now that the Mini's are gone from HS, what do you think will be the new "car to have" in HS....i've always wondered how competitive i would have been with my old 2.0L GTI in HS, but never gave it a thought with the Minis competing in HS. Now that they are gone, i'm beginning to wonder again.

Aaron Buckley · **Posted:** Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:09 am

Chris Brown wrote:

so now that the Mini's are gone from HS, what do you think will be the new "car to have" in HS....i've always wondered how competitive i would have been with my old 2.0L GTI in HS, but never gave it a thought with the Minis competing in HS. Now that they are gone, i'm beginning to wonder again.

Mini's didn't leave HS... New Mini S is staying in GS is all. - AB

Adam Ligon · **Posted:** Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:57 am

Chris Brown wrote:

so now that the Mini's are gone from HS, what do you think will be the new "car to have" in HS....i've always wondered how competitive i would have been with my old 2.0L GTI in HS, but never gave it a thought with the Minis competing in HS. Now that they are gone, i'm beginning to wonder again.

Not competative at all. Nose heavy pig, with no power. And I like VW's

FSP, 75-80 rabbit. That is where VW's can rule the class locally and nationally.

Chris Brown · **Posted:** Tue Oct 12, 2004 1:40 pm

Aaron Buckley wrote:

Chris Brown wrote:

so now that the Mini's are gone from HS, what do you think will be the new "car to have" in HS....i've always wondered how competitive i would have been with my old 2.0L GTI in HS, but never gave it a thought with the Minis competing in HS. Now that they are gone, i'm beginning to wonder again.

Mini's didn't leave HS... New Mini S is staying in GS is all. - AB

woops...misread it.

Donnie Barnes · **Posted:** Tue Oct 12, 2004 5:25 pm

Chuck Frank wrote:

I may be wrong, but I think the MiniSs are running the 225 45 16 Hoosiers.
Mark Chiles is running S03s, he cornered the market when Hoosier closed them out. Mini fixed the two problem areas: LSD and gearing. Don't think LSD will help the Mini? Watch Cortney Cormier's STX Mini power out of the corners or the Type R vs the std Integra. GS is now a one make, one model, one year class. A healthy class of 39 nationals competitors are now an also ran. Who benefitted from this decision? Mostly BMW.
The NA Mini already dominates HS and often beats GS, like on the S course at nationals.
I think this was a very poor decision that put them on a very slippery slope that upped the price of stock competition. Except for CS and ES you have to have a new/nearly new/rare/pricey car to be competitive before you even start.

Chuck, with all due respect, how can you make claims about how well the car is going to do when you don't even know what tires the car can run?

Aaron already corrected you on the size thing. And yeah, Chiles did buy a bunch of 215's before they got gone (which was easy to do as it was one of the VERY LAST tires to sell out in their fire sale). But as Aaron also pointed out, the 215 S03 and the 205 SO4 have the exact same width. So in essence he just thinks the S03 compound is better on that car. But the fact remains that the 225 S04 is wider and based on our testing a 225 is still BETTER than a 215 S03. It's almost a wash between the 205 S04 and the 215 S03, too. In fact, I'd think that Chiles situation may have as much to do with driving style as anything.

You sound eerily like a LARGE contingent of Miata drivers last year when Toyota announced the LSD for the Spyder. Many even claimed the car should immediately go to BS. :lol:

Also note that Courtney's LSD is a Quaiffe. That thing is WORLDS better than whatever stock diff they throw in.

--Donnie

Chuck Frank · **Posted:** Wed Oct 13, 2004 9:39 am

Well I guess I pay more attention to the times they run than the size tires on them. I guess others have time to go around reading the competition's sidewalls, I never considered it important enough. Size does matter, but I've not heard any Mini drivers complaining about not having enough tire except when it comes to wear. There's no indication that BMW will put a narrower wheel on the 05!
I am so confident that the 05 will dominate GS that I'd have already bought one, except for the fact that I think it will be SO dominant that it is a real possibility it will be moved before the end of the season.
Chiles was expressing the opinion at nationals that he felt that the changes would make such a difference that they "...were buying an 05 no matter where it was classed."
Chiles has lead the way in development of the Mini, everyone else has followed behind. That's the only reason the Mini hasn't already dominated GS. Put a Priebe or Daddio in one for a few events or a season and the Celis would have been an also ran. At the SEDiv at the Black Lake, John Brown beat Carpenter in a totally showroom stock S that he had only AXed 3 times before. (I did pay attention enough to see the BMW assembly stickers still on his shocks, since he was paddocked right next to us, and we're friends with John) Everyone who gets behind the wheel of a Mini goes quick right out of the box.
This decision shocked most everyone, no one was arguing that the 05 didn't belong in DS, only if the <05 S should be moved up with it.
Enough of beating this horse, the decision is made, it's time to decide what we will be driving next year, it's not likely to be the Celi.

David Teague · **Posted:** Wed Oct 13, 2004 9:41 am

Chuck Frank wrote:

. That's the only reason the Mini hasn't already dominated GS. Put a Priebe or Daddio in one for a few events or a season and the Celis would have been an also ran.

Ah chuck not to be an ass.. but if you put Daddio in just about any competitive car for a whole season and just about every one else would be Also rans

Donnie Barnes · **Posted:** Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:29 pm

Sounds like it is time to put your money where your mouth is and buy the Mini. If every Celica owner is already convinced, well, the battle is won.

--Donnie

Aaron Buckley · **Posted:** Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:41 pm

Chuck, if you're not convinced the '05 Mini S will stay in GS, why go out and buy another car? To me that seems like a lot of wasted money and effort. Drive what you have and see where it gets you. Then figure out if it's time for a new ride. You have a perfectly good CS car that is more than capable.

ESP people are complaining that keeping the EVO/STI in ESP is going to force out all of the Pony cars. Well, it really doesn't, they leave on their own free will, even though a Pony car has won Nationals for the last 10+ years, including two years with the 'dominate' cars.

If they're going to move the '05 Mini to DS, it should become quite apparent early on how dominate it can be, but without guys like Carpenter and other top Celica drivers staying in class, there will be no comparisons to make, and GS it will remain.

Problem is that with stock class, you could buy the car du jour, and tomorrow something gets classed with it that makes it trophy fodder. - AB

DickRasmussen · **Posted:** Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:11 pm

Aaron Buckley wrote:

Problem is that with stock class, you could buy the car du jour, and tomorrow something gets classed with it that makes it trophy fodder. - AB

Yep. Seen it many times in 30 years. Fortunately I was ready to move on when my first sports car (Datsun 260Z) stopped being competitive after a few years. Ditto for my Lotus Europa (stock and barely street prepared). Assuming continued health of C Mod, a good Formula Ford will stay competive "forever". Lousy daily driver though. Easy to tow though.

Chuck Frank · **Posted:** Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:20 pm

It's OK, I wasn't talking about their driving, I was refering to spearheading the development and sharing it with others. No one gave the Celica much respect until we put Priebe in ours at Petersburg and after adjusting on it he nearly won the class and Donna won L1 with it, GH drove it at Rome and won. Brian then started to develop Mike's Celica and shared the full info on the internet after winning the Championship in 02. Virtually everyone is now running that setup. He worked with Carpenter and Bill Loring on their Celis back in August adjusting for the new tires and both of them got much quicker.
Chiles has been much less willing to share setup info, plus he isn't quite the setup wizzard that some others are. It takes much longer and is much more expensive if you are trying to do it in baby steps or by trial and error.

Chuck Frank · **Posted:** Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:49 pm

Aaron Buckley wrote:

Chuck, if you're not convinced the '05 Mini S will stay in GS, why go out and buy another car? To me that seems like a lot of wasted money and effort. Drive what you have and see where it gets you. Then figure out if it's time for a new ride. You have a perfectly good CS car that is more than capable.

ESP people are complaining that keeping the EVO/STI in ESP is going to force out all of the Pony cars. Well, it really doesn't, they leave on their own free will, even though a Pony car has won Nationals for the last 10+ years, including two years with the 'dominate' cars.

If they're going to move the '05 Mini to DS, it should become quite apparent early on how dominate it can be, but without guys like Carpenter and other top Celica drivers staying in class, there will be no comparisons to make, and GS it will remain.

Problem is that with stock class, you could buy the car du jour, and tomorrow something gets classed with it that makes it trophy fodder. - AB

No one wants to compete nationally with an underdog, so yes the underdogs leave. I never said we were going to get rid of the Celica, since it's paid for and Donna really likes it (the reason we weren't in a Mini in 04) as her daily driver.
We are looking hard at bringing the Miata back out. Whatever we are driving next year it will be a dedicated race car, we pick up our tow vehicle the end of the month and the trailer right after that. Our garage should be completed before the end of the year as well.

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2005 Classing decisions by the SCCA

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