THSCC Forums

I have pasted the text of my post to the c-stock list (the list was started prior to class organization two years ago) concerning the demise of ES. I believe that I am in the top echelon of ES drivers in the country. Whne I started AX 4 years ago, ES was a class where you could spend $6000 on a car and have a nationally competitve car. Add to the fact, the very best drivers in the country running in the class, you had an awesome benchmark to judge yourself and learn.

I am sure many have heard of the "frankencivics", below is the post that details the dilemma of the "frankentwos". Welcome to competeing at the National level.

"Has the spirit of ES evaporated? I read with a little
interest the debate about the STS "frankencivics".
Now ES is becoming the playground of "frankentwos".
Yes, these cars are within the limits of rules, but
not the spirit.

I challenge anyone to locate anywhere a HT with only
PS and ABS as its options, coming from the dealer that
way? I will wager none exist.

I was watching the ladies run the north course and was
amazed by difference in acceleration of these cars as
opposed to cars that follow the spirit of the class.
Yes, there is video tape to back up my observation.
When those "frankentwos" hit 2nd gear they were like
rockets. And that has nothing to do with driver.

I believe this change of events will lead to the
demise of ES as we knew it. Simply take a look at the
class turnout this year. We went from the 2nd largest
to the 2nd smallest. I believe we will see class
participation to continue to drop.

Why? Let's take my 1993 HT for example. To make the
car competitive it will take the following:
1) Motor work $3,000
2) Double adjustable Koni's (I am too lazy to have
them revalved for different surfaces) $1300
3) ABS? God only knows. Plus I really don't lock the
wheels too often.
4) Replace all suspension pieces. We will be lean on
parts and time and say $500.
5) The time to reduce another 200# from the car?
Another unknown. For the sake of discussion, lets say
50 hours @ $25 an hour. That is cheap liesure time.
6) The time to reduce another 25# from the driver

So over the winter I will need to invest about $6000
in the car that initially cost me $6500 or buy a
California salvage car for $10,000.

When I bought my MR2 nearly 3 years ago, Doug and
Jonathan told me to expect to spend an additional
$2000 to get it to national level. Would I move into
ES now knowing that it will cost me $8000 - $9000 to
get a 10 year old car to national level?

ES was great because if you had an MR2, the car was
out of the equation. So when my butt was handed to me
in a sling, my 2 would chuckle at me and say it wasn't
his fault. Now the I am right back to when I started
in AX with a 92 Miata 4 years ago.

The slide down the slope has begun. But there is hope,
sell the 2 for $7000 use the saved $6000 and have
$13,000 for a nice 94R and wait 2 years

Flame away..."

Flame me too then because I actually agree with you Jim. You may not agree with me here but I'd like to see R-Compounds banned from stock classes as well they are a needless expense. Unless you like paying 800 bucks for tires that don't last. The rules on tires need a big change.

I see what you are saying with the MR2 as well. I could do the same thing to a Cavalier. In 95 Cavaliers had a very very stripped model available. But to find a donor car or the parts to convert mine into a 95 would be quite expensive. And what would I have essentially a home built 2 door fleet vehicle, I know there was not one of these built.

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2006 Civic Si - #24 HS for 2015

2005 GMC Sierra
1991 318is Garage Ornament

Rob... Jim isn't looking to ban race rubber in autocross. He's just a little miffed about competing in what is known as 'cheap stock', yet is now learning that 'cheap stock' is no cheaper than running some of the other stock classes.

As far as I'm concerned, there are no problems with race tires in autocross. Sure, they don't last as long as street tires, but you can pick up a set of new Kumhos in 205/50/15 for $440, and probably get 16-20 autocrosses out of them quite easily. If you want to compete at the National level, that's when the cost gets expensive. You don't even want to know what I spent on race tires last year, even with me splitting the bill with my co-driver. And that does not include the cost of 4 sets of wheels, rain tires, double adjustable shocks, tire trailer, tools, etc.

People that complain about the big costs of autocrossing Nationally seem to complain about things like tires and shocks, yet I've spent more on travel costs (food and lodging) than any of those things. - AB

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'14 Toyota Sequoia Platinum 4WD
Super Westerfield Bros - '93 Integra - LeChump Du Jour
STX 93 - Scion FR-S

Jim,
Since I'm moving to a stock class when I sell my Caterham, I'm interested in some of your estimates. What performance mods can you make to the motor for $3000 and suspension for $500 that you've not already made and are still within the rules (not counting replacing worn parts with new - you can't begrudge someone keeping their car fresh)? The rules seem pretty specific about what you can do.

Also, the rules seem specific on weight reduction - where will 200 legal lbs come from?

I'm not challenging your estimates, just interested to understand the latitude that is apparantly available in stock.

Phil

Not to answer for Jim, but the $3k is to completely rebuild the engine/throw in a new crate motor and tranny. $500 is the minimum to convert single adjustables to double adjustables Konis. That is a very low estimate too, I think. I'm not sure where the 200# worth of a savings can be had, but a good portion of that would be air conditioning, which was optional if I recall correctly.

Basically, the top cars are being 'rebuilt' to make for nearly new performance. - AB

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'14 Toyota Sequoia Platinum 4WD
Super Westerfield Bros - '93 Integra - LeChump Du Jour
STX 93 - Scion FR-S

Now that I have all of ES pissed at me, I will direct my attention here for a while. Now we are talking about a top-tier nationally prepped MR2.

A short block from Toyota Motorsports is $1200. Add the head work and 3 angle valve job to and putting it all together, $3000 is a bargain. An estimate I got to build a race specific legal motor is around $4,500. This winter I will have the head work done and the 3 angle valve job. Oh yea, that is mentioned in the technical manual, so we can do it.

If you are starting from scratch, the suspension work is far more than $500. Every bushing, link and joint would be replaced with new parts from Toyota. You can save labor costs by doing it yourself. But ytour time does count in the equation. At Nationals we had to jack one side of the car and remove the wheels. Jeff Cashmore's (Randy Noll's old car) looked brand new front and back. Not a spec of dirt, grime or rust on the suspension. Every piece looked like it came right out of the box.

Yes, you can run Koni SA on each corner and be okay. But to get it to the top level you will need DA's. The Koni inserts run about $140 each. You will need to send them to Koni to have them converted. They quoted me $340 per corner. So about $2,000 worth of shocks.

The weigh savings come in some pretty gray areas. You need to remove the AC, Cruise Control, wing, cd player, etc. The cars that are 200# lighter than mine have been put together from the ground up. This is assuming you are on Hoosiers and already have the light weight wheels. I am too cheap to get Volks for mine.

The MR2 is kind of unique in that all options were line items. There were no packages like the Miata. For example to get ABS in a Miata, you need a certain package or model. So to have ABS, you need all the other goodies that came with that package. No such issues with the MR2.

Back to the world most of live in, I am still a champion of ES. Find a $4000 2nd generation MR2 hard top or sun roof. Add a bigger front bar for about $150 and some adjustable shocks (singles). Slap some Kumhos on light rims. For local events I run the Mazda Millinium rims up front and the Kosei K1 in the back. The total cost is $350 for the rims. And you get the most bang for your racing dollar. They are a pain to learn to drive. But once you figure it out, you can drive any thing well. The cars reward you very nicely for your smooth inputs. But they bite you hard and fast if you are not.

My point is not in incurred costs. Yes, there are alot of people ready and willing to spend gobs of money. Yes, I think you should be allowed to if you so choose. But, this is autocross an entry level form of motorsport. There should be somewhere to run competatively, even at nationals, with a stock car on normal tires. The Idea is this, run a cheaper spec street tire in an indexed class. This way even club guys like myself and a host of others who can afford a car but thats about it, can hit up national/divisional events be competative and have fun. You don't have to worry much about car prep or 'ringer' tires. I don't personally see the problem with this, but alot of people I talk to are vehemently opposed to it. You could even take it a step farther and mandate non adjustable struts, OEM wheels, seats etc.. to eliminate some of the other goodies that have been allowed to creep into stock classes. I suggested to a few people that Tarheel do a spec tire or restricted tire choice for TIR class and people thought I was crazy. Alot of people just don't get it.

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2006 Civic Si - #24 HS for 2015

2005 GMC Sierra
1991 318is Garage Ornament

We all 'get it' Rob, but the sport at the local level is a lot different than the National level. The rules were designed for those who are serious about it, entry level motorsports or not. We're not talking about a sport that has been around for 5 years either. This year's 'Nationals Finale' was the 31st consecutive year, and autocross has existed for a lot longer than that. 1100 cars came from around the country in 2003 to Nationals, and 1200 the year prior.

When someone suggests using 'OEM' shocks, spec tires, etc., they really don't understand how hard that is to police. What about cars that the OEM shock doesn't exist anymore? A spec tire would mean that infinite size ranges are created by one tire brand and model... that will never happen. What about cars like the '84-'86 SVO Mustang and Neon ACR's that came with OEM Koni single adjustable shocks?

I'm trying to be rude in saying this, but people new to autocross have no clue how long it's taken the rules to evolve and what is deemed as a 'simple' fix is never quite as simple as you think. Take a look at www.sccaforums.com. There were a few people pushing for rules like you wanted. Their id's are 'Cole' and 'RSCamaro92', just to name a couple. Run a search on their posts, and take a look at the reactionary posts. It should explain a lot. 'Cole' even sent in a suggested classing called, 'Stock Street Tire', for he felt that there should be a National based class created for street tired cars(like STS and STX). It was shot down by the Solo Events Board the same month it was submitted. Just because you want to compete locally and have fun does not mean someone needs to create a class for you to run divisionally or nationally and be competitive. If you get serious about it, you'll buy the 'right' car for the class, prep it to the letter of the rules, and try you luck nationally. - AB

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'14 Toyota Sequoia Platinum 4WD
Super Westerfield Bros - '93 Integra - LeChump Du Jour
STX 93 - Scion FR-S

I was making the Cole/RSCamaro comparison in my head...

To piggyback on Aaron's points - if a competitor really wants to win at a national level, they will take the necessary steps within the rules to do so. If this requires spending a large amount of money, those who can afford it will do it. If you take away R-compounds, aftermarket shocks, aftermarket swaybars, etc., a different breed of expensive\extensive modifications will evolve. Someone will find a way to rebuild/revalve the OEM Toyota/KYB shocks that came on the mid 90's Celicas (See the GRM Celica project car articles - you're probably already familiar with it). Try to mandate non-R compound street tires with a minimum treadwear rating, some company will make a cheater tire that everyone will buy. The new ruleset you're suggesting will simply evolve into something as "unfair" as the current rules.

Re: the spec TIR class - that may work well for you, running a 195/50/15, (approx) where your spec street tire is cheaper than R-compound rubber. However, the Mustang driver running a 245/45/17 may end up penalized because the spec street tire actually costs more than R-compound rubber for his/her application. And who is to stop me from buying another set of wheels to put my spec street tires on. Guess what - I've actually spent more to try to win locally than if I ran on R-compounds.

I do not advocate any revolutionary changes in auto-x rules - it's not broken how it is. Should the rules evolve with the changes in cars/tires/etc.? Absolutely. That's what the SEB is for.

Rob - we are picking on you, but I think you're more than prepared to handle it. You seem to have plenty of strong opinions and have no qualms presenting and defending them. Kudos to you for that...

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Tom Freeman
'98 M3/4/5 | '93 Spec3 325i | '12 TSX sport wagon | '03 Tahoe
Team Silver Bullets '91 240SX

Some of us do not regard Autocross as an entry level motorsport. Autocross as entry level is a common misperception in THSCC. Attend a National or ProSolo event and you will see many people are serious about this form of motorsports.

Socialization failed in the Soviet Union and I don't hold much hope out for it working in motorsports. If you took up the sport of golf, would you want all golfers have only one club and one ball? Of course they would be same brand and model of club and ball.

Yes, lets do a stock-stock, street tire, etc class...

Now what do I do to win...

I buy new wheels (for the street tires), I buy new street tires and PAY to have them shaved to 2/32" (now they cost as much as a race tire, but don't last as long).

I buy about 40 shocks (20 front and 20 rear) and have them all dyno'd. I use the ones that are the best.

Even better, I send then them to Koni and have them revalved (yes, Koni can do this) and I cheat. Fortunately, I won't need to cheat because I was already able to out spend the guy that plays by the spirit of the rules.

Autocross is a competition, people like to win, therefore, people will always be willing to do what it takes to win. If you don't want to do what it takes, or can't afford it, then you have to get used to not winning.

Scott

I was just trying to take the heat off Jim . As is the problem of my utopian cheap guy class, some jackass will go and buy 1000 dollar non adjustable struts. Or worse yet 8 different sets of nonadjustables and tests them all in different combinations to find the best ones. BTW, premium nonadjustables revalved and custom made allready exist for many cars right off the shelf. Mantapart sells them for the Cavalier for 450 bucks, I'd hate to see tag from the same part on a premium car. Alot of good drivers take autocross very seriously, but they must remember this is still the most simple and easily done form of motorsport in the world it's not F1. But even at this level there are economies of scale and everyone needs to take that into consideration. I don't have alot of spare cash around, enough to spend more on my car than I do, but I don't because it's allready fast and doing anything else is a waste of money in my opinion.

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2006 Civic Si - #24 HS for 2015

2005 GMC Sierra
1991 318is Garage Ornament

A case can be made that autocross is one of the most difficult forms of motorsports.

We will not go into the expense. Both venues are probably the same money versus technology ratio.

An F1 driver sees the same course many times during a race. An error in one corner can be made up through out the race. If the car set up is missed, the driver has the ability to make changes during the race. Likewise the crew can make changes during the race to the car.

Plus the F1 driver is not responsible for anything besides getting into the car and driving. But they have the added complexity of other cars on course and the risk of death.

In autocross you never see the same course twice. Actually you have no idea what is in store for you until you arrive at the event. The autocross driver now has to figure out the course and how they plan on driving it. And then if any changes have to be made to the car to accomidate the course and ther style.

You have only three runs to get it right. We all have expereinced it many times, enter a turn too fast and your run is over. Get on the aceelerator a little late and you have just thrown away 33% of your opportunity.

I think the complexity of autocross is what really deters some people. On flip side, the complexity is what fuels others. Although the social scene is not on the level of F1, it is an important part of autocross. I feel the social part of autocross is the best in ameutur (we need a spellchecker) motorsports.

I agree with this statement 100%.

I also agree that spec tires are A Bad Idea, regardless of whether it's at THSCC or Topeka. What happens when some supplier runs out of tires? Do you tell the people who couldn't get the Spec Tire to pound sand? After their 18 hour tow to Topeka?

This scenario is not uncommon. The organization I race with went to a spec tire with the Toyo RA-1. Toyo has been notorious for years now for the occasional sizing and availability problems. When a competitor runs into this problem they're screwed. And it does happen.

Sorry Jim, not trying to steer you too far off topic, but it's something near to my heart.

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Karl S.
2014 Baby, 2014 House, 2013 Ford Focus ST, 2013 BMW 328i, 1994 Mercedes E320
(Insert passive aggressive signature line here)

We are somewhat victims of our own sucess. AX has grown tremendously in popularity, so more tallent is coming in or being developed, hence as the level of competition goes up, the margin of victory becomes smaller. As the margins decrease, small differences become more significant. In stock class the rule prohibit most modifications, so the costs of those small changes become higher as competitors search deeper and deeper, squeezing the rules for any advantage.
The nationals are the olympics of AX, the masters tournament. If you want to compete at this level, you must be willing to pay the price. Local golf tournaments play by the same basic rules as the top events, but they don't try to "dumb down" the rules so that the weekend duffer can play in or win the Masters, nor is Tiger Woods required to play with an off the shelf set of clubs from Walmart...

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SPIN or WIN!
there's no glory for going slow.