Generator

MarcusMcRae · **Posted:** Tue Aug 24, 2004 9:03 pm

The last heel and toe mentioned purchasing a generator to alleviate some of our powa issues during events. Do we need to start a fund to get one or do we have enough in the auto x account??

Marcus

MikeWhitney · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm **Posts:** 4724

First, not all of the officers agree we need a generator. Past experience shows that without unanimous agreement among the senior officers, things usually don't happen

And yes, we now have enough cash - I believe the EV challenge $$ have come in for 2003 and 2004. So we just need to keep Bowie Sr. from taking a big vacation

Speaking of money, we need to see if the Viper Club folks are interested in another event. Those events have helped our cash flow situation in the past.

Scott Johnson · **Posted:** Wed Aug 25, 2004 7:48 am

What Mike said.

We actually have a team assessing the current power needs on the bus. Often it takes a proposal to spend a minor amount of money, on something insanely practical

to get us to realize that the real problem is all our busted stuff that just needs pennies in repairs.

The current plan is to assess the situation scientifically (volt meters, battery testers, etc) and fix any glaring issues (we think the PA amp may be bad). After that we will consider our current and short term future power demands (next few years) and try to make an informed decision about the best way to address these needs.

The primary options on the table are:

1) Status quo (with any minor updates needed).
2) small generator (and wiring the bus to take advantage of it).
3) Solar cells on the bus roof with batteries to store the power and feed it back to the system (and any wiring that's needed).

Scott

Edit: some speling

Chuck Frank · **Posted:** Wed Aug 25, 2004 8:34 am

IMHO FWIW:
#1: Not dependable presently, significant upgrading is probably in order no matter what else is done, a dual redundant switchable system, one for the computer/timer one for everything else, would be ideal.
#2: Straight forward solution for current (no pun intended) and future needs, don't need a top of the line ($Ks) generator, less expensive ($3-400) ones have equal capabilities just are bulkier, noisier (not an issue at an AX). I have a nearly new one sitting around since the big hurricane I would sell at a good price.
#3: nice "green" thought, but not practical for this application. This one needs to be taken off the table.

It seems that the situation is getting increasingly more serious. Senior officers need to come into agreement on this before we have to call an event due to complete failure. What's wrong with a majority rules vote to break the stalemate?

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Wed Aug 25, 2004 9:01 am

Chuck Frank wrote:

#3: nice "green" thought, but not practical for this application. This one needs to be taken off the table.

Out of curiousity, why is this not practical? The only complication that I can see is cloudy days.

Chuck Frank · **Posted:** Wed Aug 25, 2004 9:38 am

1. good solar cells are expensive.
2. they are fragile and not meant for "portable" installations where they are subjected to vibration and bouncing (Yah I know the bus rides like a cloud) bug and stone hits etc.
3. they deteriorate fairly rapidly from age, sun exposure. Someone would have to climb up (new position: "bus monkey") and cover them after every event to prolong their life, protect them from weather and other things that fall out of the sky.
4. Capacity falls off quickly with dirt covering, (Note: "bus monkey" must do windows!). Also falls off quickly with orientation, would require parking/moving the bus relative to sun position rather than for best view of the event, and possibly even having to change the angle relative to the horizon throughout the event. (another job for the "bus monkey"!)
5. do I need to mention weather?
6. requires a significant bank of expensive/heavy deep discharge batteries for storage. These batteries would most likely end up getting most of their charge from the bus's generator since once a month use of the solar generators and their low amperage output (really a small trickle charger) for a few hrs would not equal the drain of the day's use or keep up the batteries between uses, it would only be a redundant auxilary system in the end.
7. would increase our insurance rates for premium to cover med/disability insurance for high risk job: "bus monkey"! :wink:

MarcusMcRae · **Posted:** Wed Aug 25, 2004 10:46 am

Chuck Frank wrote:

1. good solar cells are expensive.
2. they are fragile and not meant for "portable" installations where they are subjected to vibration and bouncing (Yah I know the bus rides like a cloud) bug and stone hits etc.
3. they deteriorate fairly rapidly from age, sun exposure. Someone would have to climb up (new position: "bus monkey") and cover them after every event to prolong their life, protect them from weather and other things that fall out of the sky.
4. Capacity falls off quickly with dirt covering, (Note: "bus monkey" must do windows!). Also falls off quickly with orientation, would require parking/moving the bus relative to sun position rather than for best view of the event, and possibly even having to change the angle relative to the horizon throughout the event. (another job for the "bus monkey"!)
5. do I need to mention weather?
6. requires a significant bank of expensive/heavy deep discharge batteries for storage. These batteries would most likely end up getting most of their charge from the bus's generator since once a month use of the solar generators and their low amperage output (really a small trickle charger) for a few hrs would not equal the drain of the day's use or keep up the batteries between uses, it would only be a redundant auxilary system in the end.
7. would increase our insurance rates for premium to cover med/disability insurance for high risk job: "bus monkey"! :wink:

Sign me up for "bus monkey"!! :lol:

It seems like getting a generator would be a no-brainer. The last Laurinburg event was quite frustrating with the PA and time display not working properly due to a lack of powa.

Adam Ligon · **Posted:** Wed Aug 25, 2004 10:52 am

Yeah and everything went perfectly at Rockingham. Makes you think the problem isn't as simple as people are making it out to be.

And as for the solar issues, I think Chuck is making them seem much bigger than they are. We are talking 12v here not 120v, where I think most of his reason would make sense.

MikeWhitney · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm **Posts:** 4724

MarcusMcRae wrote:

Chuck Frank wrote:

1. good solar cells are expensive.
2. they are fragile and not meant for "portable" installations where they are subjected to vibration and bouncing (Yah I know the bus rides like a cloud) bug and stone hits etc.
3. they deteriorate fairly rapidly from age, sun exposure. Someone would have to climb up (new position: "bus monkey") and cover them after every event to prolong their life, protect them from weather and other things that fall out of the sky.
4. Capacity falls off quickly with dirt covering, (Note: "bus monkey" must do windows!). Also falls off quickly with orientation, would require parking/moving the bus relative to sun position rather than for best view of the event, and possibly even having to change the angle relative to the horizon throughout the event. (another job for the "bus monkey"!)
5. do I need to mention weather?
6. requires a significant bank of expensive/heavy deep discharge batteries for storage. These batteries would most likely end up getting most of their charge from the bus's generator since once a month use of the solar generators and their low amperage output (really a small trickle charger) for a few hrs would not equal the drain of the day's use or keep up the batteries between uses, it would only be a redundant auxilary system in the end.
7. would increase our insurance rates for premium to cover med/disability insurance for high risk job: "bus monkey"! :wink:

Sign me up for "bus monkey"!! :lol:

It seems like getting a generator would be a no-brainer. The last Laurinburg event was quite frustrating with the PA and time display not working properly due to a lack of powa.

Since we have a team assembled to take care of this, I wasn't going to get into a lengthy discussion on the forums, but since these last 2 posts were made, I have to chime in.

A generator is NOT a no-brainer as far as I'm concerned. It's another thing to buy, transport, and care for. I've been a strong advocate of simplifying our operations and this definitely goes in the wrong direction IMO.

Plus, it's not needed! We're working on an accurate tally of our power requirements, but I know that the batteries in the bus have far more than enough capacity to run everything we need for a long, long time. In addition, most of the stuff in the bus is 12v.

The REAL problem, as I witnessed last weekend, I believe is a combination of 2 things: (1) the invertor used with the computer causes a HUGE current drain when the computer is charging. This coupled with (2) the inadequate wiring to the outlets was causing a voltage drop at the outlets of 12.4 -> 10 volts! Nothing is going to run well on 10 volts. That's the voltage drop at the outlets - you better believe those gigantic batteries are still at 12.4 volts.

Improve the wiring and the connections, and buy a new 12v adaptor for the laptop (why don't we have a new one already?) and I bet the problem is solved.

The display problems that plagued us all year were not power supply related at all. The same problems would have happened on a generator. The battery inside the display was shot and it is needed to handle the surge current. It's fixed now and worked flawlessly all weekend.

Finally I need to respond to Chuck's comments about the solar cells - there are plenty of flexible, durable, 10+ year solar solutions out there that are not expensive and would put out enough current to meet our modest requirements. It's been looked into and it would be a great "supplemental" power source to ensure the batteries remain charged. But they too aren't needed if we fix the real problems.

We're not looking for band-aids, people!

Jason Mauldin · **Posted:** Wed Aug 25, 2004 11:14 am

MikeWhitney wrote:

you better believe those gigantic batteries are still at 12.4 volts.

One of those batteries tested bad last weekend. It might test good after it was recharged. Maybe we need to invest in a few new batteries and a decent battery charger to keep them charged between events.

Quote:

We're not looking for band-aids, people!

On this line of thought, we might want to think about getting away from as much of the 110V stuff in the bus that we can. 12V appliances (fans, printers) are generally more expensive, but would reduce our need for power inverters, which just sit there and consume battery power.

Tom Hoppe · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 10:16 am **Posts:** 387

Quote:

buy a new 12v adaptor for the laptop (why don't we have a new one already?) and I bet the problem is solved.

Done. 2 of them. They will be here next week.

-Tom

Chris Landi · **Joined:** Mon Mar 08, 2004 6:31 pm **Posts:** 579

MikeWhitney wrote:

..........

Speaking of money, we need to see if the Viper Club folks are interested in another event. Those events have helped our cash flow situation in the past.

Is there any issue with a tarheel attending the Viper event if they're invited? I was invited to attend last years Snake Charmer school before I joined the club. I'd love to go again if I'm invited this year.

Chris

MikeWhitney · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm **Posts:** 4724

Jason Mauldin wrote:

One of those batteries tested bad last weekend. It might test good after it was recharged. Maybe we need to invest in a few new batteries and a decent battery charger to keep them charged between events.

I didn't know about that. One of the batteries attached to the bus or the ones on the floor?

There are a few options for trickle-charging the batteries between events. I happen to think solar is the best option.

There is a regular 110V battery charger in the bus too. However, if everything is working properly we shouldn't ever need the spare batteries OR the charger. The alternator in the bus should provide ample charging on the way to and from the event.

I know the naiive part of my argument is the "if everything is working properly" part. I think part of our strategy NEEDS to be data collection - ie a voltmeter - which alerts us about when things start to go wrong.

Jason Mauldin wrote:

On this line of thought, we might want to think about getting away from as much of the 110V stuff in the bus that we can. 12V appliances (fans, printers) are generally more expensive, but would reduce our need for power inverters, which just sit there and consume battery power.

I agree 110%. I think the printer may be the only thing that needs it.

We'll get the problems sorted out, I promise

MikeWhitney · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm **Posts:** 4724

Tom Hoppe wrote:

Quote:

buy a new 12v adaptor for the laptop (why don't we have a new one already?) and I bet the problem is solved.

Done. 2 of them. They will be here next week.

-Tom

Thanks Tom!!!

Jason Mauldin · **Posted:** Wed Aug 25, 2004 1:00 pm

The battery that tested bad was the one that was plugged into the solar panel. I told the tester that the battery was charged when it failed. I meant to retest it and choose "not charged", but got side-tracked.

I can probably get a small volt-meter gauge to go in the bus.

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