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Wouldn't this eliminate a large sector of potential autocrossers -- those that already modify their cars to make them go faster?

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Has no responsibility whatsoever.

ditto.

Also, it brings up the entire "what is 100% stock" issue which is an unsolvable can of worms.

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Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

Up here we have 2 novice classes. One for Novice Stock, and one for Novice Everyone Else. These are PAXed classes the novices can participate in all year long, though some opt to move to open class mid-year. Seems to work well for this group, and the novices like it.

It also keeps the discouragement factor down a bit since you have 2 groups of 20, instead of 1 group of 40. Even if it's still last, 20th sounds better than 40th.

Diane ~ who remembers when a HUGE novice turn out was 10.

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Diane (Hall) Bundas
1992 Spec Miata #48 - 1997 Chevy Tahoe - 2007 Honda Civic Coupe

I wonder how many novices who have already modified their cars have mods that are limited to those allowed in Stock or ST . . . or even SP? Seems like common "street enthusiat" mods typically go beyond what autocrossing rules allow below SM or Prepared. In other words, is this really a potential problem?

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Dick Rasmussen

FS 50 2018 Mustang GT

well, my idea was to reduce size of the TIR class, create a defined standard for moving to open class, and to create a stepping stone for novices. This stops open class dilution, and delivers a level field for drivers until they commit to mods. Once they commit to mods, and have the experience to go with it, they should move up to an open class.

Right now, there is no specific "time" to move up. Yes, most everyone in the top 1/3 or so of TIR from last year moved up. I didn't. Now, I feel like a turd. If the 100% stock TIR class existed, I would have removed my front sway bar bushings and run for a while. When the need to modify raised it's ugly head, the rules would have indicated that it's time for me to move to open. It's really a natural step that I should have realized on my own.

So yes, creating a 100% stock TIR class WOULD eliminate some modified cars from competing in TIR - that's the idea. BUT, modified cars would go to whatever class they fit in after their tour in NOV. Like Dick said, those that have mod's before autocrossing are in a tough situation class-wise anyway.

Up until this year, my Integra was run 100% stock except for front sway bar bushings (which were a waste of money). Other than rear brake pads, a cvjoint boot kit, and a timing belt/water pump (all parts purchased from Acura dealer, so they are OEM parts), I haven't changed anything on the car. Hell, it even has the ORIGINAL front brake pads at 95,000 miles. So, I think it's pretty easy to define 100% stock. The 100% stock idea would carry the same rules as stock class but no "upgrade" parts like "performance" brake pads, "performance" cat-backs, no adjustable shocks. It would be like any other class - trust that your competitor obeys the rules (and the spirit of the rules).

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Jim Williams
'94 GSR Integra, TIR 12

The question I have with a 100% stock TIRE class is this...How do you police it? For example, I have Hawk HP+ pads on the front of my Mustang. Aside from the amount of dust on my wheels, you would never know they wern't stock.

I don't think that there is any way a 100% stock class would work.

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Todd Breakey
STS 42 - 1992 Sunburst Miata
Dammit!
"You souldn't play leap frog with a porcupine. You might get hurt." - Eliza

Come on, people. How does the whole damn system work if this is problem? YOU know those pads are on the car. That should be enough. An illegal modification that has no visible evidence is *still* illegal in ANY class.

This is not a question of 100% stock class. These arguments apply to all classes. If I had an A-mod car that weighted 350 lbs but the rule is 700 and there were no scales around does it make it legal? NO. How do we police that? We're all supposed to be big boys and girls and REMOVE ourselves from a class in which we're not legal OR put the car into a configuration that IS legal for that class.

Maybe I'm the only one who has run 100% stock for a while. If that's the case, then the idea has no real merit. Throw it out. The reason for this thread was to present ideas. Mine have been presented.

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Jim Williams
'94 GSR Integra, TIR 12

I guess my point of my post is this, how many people do you know are going to go to the dealership parts department and get a ~$150 (for my Mustang) set of inferior pads for their car when you can get much better pads for less money?

BTW, with the exception of my brake pads and tires, I run 100% stock also, I even run Motorcraft HD Brake Fluid, Motorcraft Synthetic blend oil and Motorcraft filters.

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Todd Breakey
STS 42 - 1992 Sunburst Miata
Dammit!
"You souldn't play leap frog with a porcupine. You might get hurt." - Eliza

How about adding a project car class, considering...


My car is bone stock/less a bumper, with 250k miles on the stuts and shocks. My tires are driven daily to and from work and to and from events, It (as some people agree on) that my car should run FSP, I can't affor a 350 dollar rear bumper just to run stock class, and I can't afford to invest 250 dollars in struts and shocks. My car is not, and will never be competitive in *SP I don't expect to tropy I just like having the compition of cars that my car can about match in times. If I ran street prepared until I got a bumper to be honest then I would be better off staying home. The dead last thing every event, with no chance of even keeping up is a total blow out.

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beware of EV powered Ford EXP's they are quiet and come for you when you least expect it... hide behind an aluminum light pole...... ya that will help

How about a "Dale Schendel" class? We'll call it DSH. The only rules - your car must be worth less than the gasoline in the fuel tank, and it must be ugly.

I could run the CoROLLa!!!!

This is SO going on the ballot.

Mike <- going to get another beer.

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Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

I think the "100% stock" class would be a class of less than 5 and a waste of time. Most people that get involved in autox are car people! Car people do stuff to their cars! Be it bling bling rims, wider tires, PFCM brake pads, shifter knobs WHATEVER! I just dont see where this "100% stock" class would serve the greater membership because no one would qualify. Plus, you would have people arguing over what "100% stock" means.

And just for my own knowledge, Jim, do you run the FACTORY tires on your Integra?

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02 Focus SVT
STF 9

Let's not pick on Jim too much. He was just throwing out ideas, which is what Scott asked us to do. Let's hear some new proposals now.

Miles

Random thoughts that concern Scott:

I notice that in most of these class discussions the same few people are always the ones that reply. Even worse, 75% of those people will see *no* changes to their typical autocross event if we changed the class structure.

Does that mean that the majority of autocrossers at our events just don't give a darn? Maybe they aren't on this list (however, if they care then they would be here?).

I've also noticed that most of the people that would vote for "change" bring home most of the first place trophies. Even with the changes, they would *still* bring home most of the first place trophies (yet they indirectly argue by taking away the trophies from other folks will somehow make *everyone* enjoy autocross a bit more).

Since we run a clock at events, there will inevitabally be comparisons in times. That's what makes the sport fun. Since someone goes through the trouble of creating a "PAX" there will invariabally be comparisons via PAX, and I think that is fun too.

As an officer, here are a few of my goals:

1) Ensure our events are fun and that there is adequate competition in all classes (I don't see much value in running in a class of 1).

2) Ensure that (within reason) everyone has a class to play in where they can be matched against others that have similar skills/experience.

#2 is kind of vague. Some people talk about Tire class as a "JV" class, and maybe it is. Others would consider "novice" is JV class. There are some people that think there is no place/need for JV classes. Personally, I played on the JV football team in Jr. high (sat the bench is more like it), I eventually graduated to the varsity team (and still sat the bench), however, I did appreciate the need for a JV team, and still see that need. It's also worth mentioning that I still wore a helmet and pads on the JV team (think of that as like changing tires for street tire class). Just because it's JV doesn't mean it's non-competitive.

Yes, Tire = JV is beyond the scope of the origination of the class, however as Diane pointed out earlier, we didn't have 30 novices at every event back then (and another 30 people within 1 year of being a novice). Times have changed, and the needs of the club may have changed as well.

Why do we have Formula Atlantic, Formula 3000, etc? Those are all JV teams, and wouldn't exist if it weren't for rich people that want to race, it's not like there is a lot of ad and sponsorship revenue there. Same goes for ARCA, Bush N/S/E/W, etc.

I do think it's important to throw the rookies a bone from time to time, and if that means a "tire" class, then we should have it. Taking all of the regulars from Pro class and putting them in open class might motivate a few people, and it might alienate even more. We *need* 110-130 drivers at every event to pay the bills, so we can't alienate everyone.

Scott

As an aside, the whole "stock" issue is kinda funny to me -- True factory stock =/ SCCA stock. If people would care to read the rulebook instead of banter on about things, you'd be surprised about what mods you actually can and cannot do to your car and still remain *S/ST*/*SP etc. legal.

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Has no responsibility whatsoever.

For the Novice portion of this thread...

I like the following suggestion from Mike Whitney:

2. Put novices in class (no separate NOV class) but add a top-10 Novice Driver pax list in the results. Justification - see #1.

I ran one event as a NOV and then had to choose a class. I've been running in AS and selecting OPEN as the class category when I fill out the registry form for an event. I chose AS because it seemed competitive with just a few people running in it. The cool thing was that during my first AS race, Miles and Dan saw the markings on the car and came over to introduce themselves and offer assistance with course walking, ride alongs, line selection, etc. I thought that was pretty cool and it helped out a lot. Similarly, Graham introduced himself to me at the next event.

I don't mind being at the bottom of the class (well, not too much) but I'd sure like to know how I stand with respect to everyone else that has migrated from NOV to some other class over the course of this year. So the comment on the top 10 NOV Pax results is spot on.

So, I agree with Mike but also would like to state that when a NOV moves into another class they need to be noticed by the experienced folks in that class and be given guidance throughout the year. I think that will really move them along the curve to competitiveness within their group.