THSCC Forums

Wouldn't he have to shave first to run in STSL?

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Has no responsibility whatsoever.

I agree with Mike, however I will suggest a fwe small changes to the ballot.

If it were me, I'd split #1 into two separate items.

1A) Eliminate TIR as a separate class (Y/N)

1B) Track a TIR PAX list (Y/N)

I think if we kill Tire class, then we don't really need to bother with tracking it at all. Let people snoop around their competitions cars to figure it out on their own, it will start more discussions at events, etc.

Scott

I wouldn't form a ballot quite yet....

When Scott started this thread, I think he was hoping for an electronic brainstorming session. Unfortunately, as we tend to do around here, the thread deteriorated into analysis and even criticism of ideas presented. The first rule of brainstorming is no criticism is allowed.

If we can get back on track of just tossing out ideas, I'm sure the officers can sift through them. If there must be an analysis, it should be under a separate topic.

I'd like for you to leave the thread open and let people continue to comment. I'm sure we haven't heard everything yet....

If you want to continue to generate ideas, Mike W. maybe you can close this thread as a moderator and post a 2nd request for comments.

Miles

I agree with Scott on this one. As for Scott's 1B), does this apply to everyone at an event that is running DOT 140 TWR or above tires?

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Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

Ok... So I am here to give my 2 cents as one of the ladies running in a ladies class!!
(This is my opinion and does not necessarily reflect the opinions of other ladies out there!!)
I personally like running in ladies esp. now that I have someone in my class unlike when I was in H-stock it was just a really easy way to change our number on the car (add an L)...
I like running in ladies b/c I will admit that I am not as good as the guys, I just don't understand the car, ie. I am still trying to learn all the terms and how the car feels (ie. pushing, drifting...) I am a slow learner what can I say!! It might help if Dustin stopped changing the car before every event!!
The reason I started racing was b/c Dustin was having a blast and I wanted to support him in his hobby (I would rather be out there racing then just watching) But I in no means plan to run anywhere but locals for the next few years.. So I am taking my time getting everything down!! I love the social part of racing and the adrenaline rushes after running!!
I will admit that I am a competitive person and competiting with the boys right now just doesn't work!! Just look at the comparison of CS to CSL for the last few events. Amy and I are really close but compared to CS we are way back!! Now yes there are other ladies in CS but that is a choice that each of us should be able to make. The other ladies in CS are up there with the boys times!

I think having a PAX ladies class so all the ladies that are out there for social fun or supporting a guy in their lives can have fun but at our level!! I agree that the way we run ladies right now isn't beneficial when I was in H-Stock I always got bumped into the open class which would sometimes make it just Dustin and I (not fun for me!)

Again just my 2 cents... well maybe a little more than 2!

Malia

Comments...

Breaking the above into two parts does not work in my opinion. Especially if you REALLY are looking for a way to keep some of the TIR people happy and get their buy in. If you do away with TIR but still track a TIR PAX list, you might get more buy in from current TIR competitors. No TIR class AND No TIR PAX list would probably not go well with some people.

I also think the straight up Yes/No on some simple stuff leaves many details unresolved. You could have weird combos of items approved/disapproved that result in a less than optimal solution. I suggest creating specific plans with more details on how all of this would work and then put those plans up for vote vs. individual features.

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Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

Ladies Class: I would also like to see an indexed ladies class. Many women are out there simply because their husbands are. I also believe that there are women out there that are too afraid to participate because they don't believe that they can compete with the guys. When I was first starting, I would have loved to have had an indexed ladies class. I was stuck in SM with a bunch of guys who had been racing for a long time and they were all much better than me. I got last place in almost every race (if not every race). It was extremely discouraging and I thought about quitting numerous times. I believe I would have been happier in an indexed ladies class. I might not ever have won anything, but I believe that I would have been closer in time to some of them at least. I also believe that it would have been less intimidating.

Now that I am a little better, I want to be where the competition is. If the competition is in the indexed ladies class then I will race there. If the competition is in DSP then I will race there.

We have so few women that go to events on a regular basis (I would guess between 10-15 race on a regular basis). It would be nice to have a decent sized class that the ladies will feel comfortable running in.

I won't comment on the PRO proposals, but I do like the idea of dropping TIR. There are a number of classes that are diluted and a number of "street" tires running in Open class doing just fine. I DO believe that if PRO goes away, TIR should as well. Otherwise I suspect that many who may currently hold a shot at wood in Open on "street tires" will simply move to TIR to avoid having to run against National-level drivers who run Hoosiers locally, thus making TIR an even BIGGER class and diluting Open even more.

I'll go out on a limb here and summarize my own ovservations on Ladies classes, being a little closer to this issue than some others:
First, competing directly with your Wife/GF is NOT a good idea, especially if she is competitive by nature but doesn't have the same "live/eat/breath" cars/racing attitude. While I fully believe that ANY woman CAN be competitive in Open (and certainly we have a VERY good representation of that in our club with Chris, Donna, Sally, etc...), I think Malia has much more fun duking it out in CSL where the competition is not quite as fierce. In fact, I believe the CSL class will progress FASTER by concentrating on improving smaller aspects of their driving at each event (I think we're seeing that this year in CSL) than by getting put at the bottom of the CS list at every event which can get discouraging. However, since L-classes participation is very small, I believe the combined L-class is a good idea and still allows a less stressful environment to get wives and girlfriends involved. In fact, a larger L-class may promote increased involvement. In some respects this may be _like_ an extended NOV class, but different in that is isn't called NOV, and that it doesn't have a requirement to ever move to Open, though may be encouraged at some point. If nothing else, I believe this is worth trying for a year or two before L-classes are dropped all together.

My $.02

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Dustin Fredrickson
-- I'm a nobody --

Since I'm one of the Novice Coordinators I'll put my .02 worth in and I hope Frank and Rob will as well.

Dropping the Novice class would definitely discourage newbies. Like Jim said, after getting trounced by 5-10 seconds at your first event who would want to come back? That's like a Little-Leager facing Nolan Ryan's 100+ MPH fast ball his first time at bat.

I like the idea of two extra Novice runs, but unfortunately with 15-20 newbies per event the time constraints would prohibit it.

I'm all for a year long Novice Class with season points. I think having a whole season to learn and hone your skills would be a very positive thing. You have good amount time to learn before you are forced to go play with the big boys and girls. It would be mostly like a year long school.

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Vincent Keene
'06 Ford Mustang GT (track rat)
'15 Dodge Charger R/T (yeah, it's got a HEMI!)
'07 Ford Fusion SE (205,000 miles and counting)
'98 Chevy Z-24 (retired)
'93 Acura Integra (Team SWB 24HOL Car)

As someone running in TIR this year with every intention of moving to open class next year....just curious....what did you see this weekend that makes you say this? Not trying to start an argument, just looking for input.

I will admit, we do run Azenis, and up until the event last weekend, we drove them to the events. (I recently sold my other car, so my autocross car and daily driver are one in the same for the time beings, so, for this reason alone, I have started swapping my tires at events for the sake of making the azenis last till the end of the season). Other then that though, our car is as bone stock as it gets. I guess my real question is, do you say this because of the tires alone? or are you seeing something else in addition to this that leads you to believe the cars should be classed otherwise...without pointing fingers of course....just general statements. That covers the "run what you brought" part of the statement.

Also, do you feel like people in TIR are staying longer then they should? If this is the case....what is appropriate? How long should people compete in TIR? I don't think this can be quantified as a certain number of events, as everyone is different. I personally am just now starting to feel competitive in the TIR class after running with the club a full year in July.

Again, I am not looking to start an argument with this, more so for the people in TIR or that plan to run there next year, point out what exactly everyone needs to consider if they want the class to remain and be true to it's intent. Like I said, I plan to move into open class myself after this season, so this won't effect me, but I have certainly enjoyed the competition in TIR this year so far, and I don't think I am the only one. I know there was a big discussion about dilution of open classes because of classes like TIR, but it seemed to me that a fair number of people that were at the top of those classes, moved into open classes for this year to help alleviate that problem a little, and I would expect that to happen again at the end of this year.

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Stephen Westerfield
2009 Infiniti M35 | 2007 Honda Fit Sport | 2005 Ford Mustang GT |2000 GMC Sierra |1992 Acura Integra LS | Super Westerfield Bros Acura Integra

As far as I'm concerned this is the gospel. If your lady is competative, but not nearly up to your level don't co-drive a car. Sonya got easily discouraged when I was 4-5 seconds ahead of her in the same car. Once she was driving her own car she improved drastically and was much happier. You know what they say, if Mama ain't happy....

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Vincent Keene
'06 Ford Mustang GT (track rat)
'15 Dodge Charger R/T (yeah, it's got a HEMI!)
'07 Ford Fusion SE (205,000 miles and counting)
'98 Chevy Z-24 (retired)
'93 Acura Integra (Team SWB 24HOL Car)

Believe me, I'm not anti-novice. It's just the opposite, honest.



I recognize that I will never have the wisdom that Jim has, but here is some rationale for the dropping NOV.

The best way to retain novices is for them to have a mentor, whether that's through a formal or an informal process. Every long term member I know of has a story of how someone helped them in their early events and got them to stick it out through the discouraging phase of this sport. We have discussed this one before too over the years, and never really made a serious attempt to formalize it.

The theory behind eliminating NOV is to get them to interact more with experienced people in their class. We would also need to encourage the experienced folks to help out, which I think they would. I think it would help most of the novices a lot to be rubbing elbows with the experienced folks. When people are new to the sport, they tend to associate more quickly with other folks in their class. I see little benefit for novices to be hanging around each other all day. It's the blind leading the blind. Where this theory falls down is in classes where the NOV is the only competitor.

If we would do a better job as a club of help the NOVs, I would be ok with keeping NOV class. Regardless of that, I would like to see us require the NOVs to take an instructor on their first two runs at least. I would rather see us do that than allow extra runs for NOVs. We gave them five runs yesterday. If they would just take an instructor on those runs, they would do fine.

If we eliminate NOV, we could go gack to labeling cars the way we used to several years ago- with the class letters followed by N. This would simply be a way for the rest of us to identify the novices so we can help them.

I don't think Novices on their first few events get that discouraged just because of their times. They get discouraged if they don't improve. The best way for times to improve is to provide a little instruction.


Miles

P.S. In case you are wondering, Jim and I meet regularly to come up with a list of topics to disagree on.

If you want to read the entire thing, go back to page 1 of this thread.

Ok, This is the "why this idea works well for Novice" sales pitch. If we run EVERYONE in Open class, but still post results for NOV based upon PAX results AND provide PAX trophies like we do now then...

* Novices will hopefully interact with those in their class like Miles is looking for. This will also boost open class numbers.
* Novices will still be able to compare their PAX values to each other via the PAX results and PAX trophies (Novice PAX trophy in this case) at the end of each event.

I have NO idea how we would do end of year novice trophies if we enforce a "win and your out of novice" rule. I think the "novice" rules would have to be revisited to make an end of year award work.

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Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

What I suggest adds work, however, not that much.

Novices should run with class and get points with class. They will also be awarded separate "novice" points based on their paxed novice results.

This keeps people from getting the shaft in open classes if they start in novice class (not all people suck from day one).

I'm not sur eif rookie of the year will go to the winner of novice or not. I think this year's top "rookie" may already be decided.

Scott

Drop PRO class. Where is the logic in asking a really good driver to remove him/herself from competition so lesser drivers can get a trophy?

TIR: cars can run a 140TW tire, but must otherwise be 100% stock. NO mods whatsoever. This gives NOV's a place to go until they get the bug to get shocks, sway bars, etc. The class would be a transitional class just like NOV.

NOV stays. It helps us easily identify who may need help AND it's easy to enforce the "no novices riding with novices rule"

Now, if we're itching for a format change other than the above. Let's PLEASE stay away from "brackets". Bracket racing is an oxymoron. There is not incentive to go faster or improve skill. Oops, this is brainstorming, not soapboxing.

Format change: how about averaging the TWO fastest runs to determine the winner? This would reward a driver who can consistently drive well (or not hit cones) rather than the winner pullling one fast run from the butt. (I'm not a real big fan of this, but think it does incentivize a valuable skill). Totalizing runs (rallycross style) works too.

Lastly, I'd like to put all the cars who do tire-smokin' u-turns all in one group so we can all watch. The best smoker gets a club donation for tires. Rodney, this means you. Black Mustang ESP14, you too. Any other takers?

I'll be in GS next year (I might even replace my 95,000 mile front shocks, front brake pads and bushings!) so zip it

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Jim Williams
'94 GSR Integra, TIR 12