red flags

JoeLohr · **Joined:** Tue May 19, 2015 2:33 pm **Posts:** 3

Got something I thought I should bring up. I drove through a red flag on my last run yesterday, and I don't think it was my fault. I hit a cone that run, so this is NOT about getting the time to count. More about people with the flag knowing what to do. If I need to stop, I'd really like someone to stop me. I'll show you what I mean. The following pics are from the last three stations: 6, 7, and 8. Station 6 is the only one that sort of thought about considering waving the flag. One or two other guys maybe held out their arms at me, but they might have been stretching. You can see them in the video, it's from station 4 to the finish: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keYra0SwqHM

I'd be surprised if anyone stopped for that.

Attachment:

station 6 RF.jpg

Attachment:

station 7 RF.jpg

Attachment:

station 8 RF.jpg

Steven Carter · **Posted:** Sun Nov 13, 2016 7:26 pm

Can't tell why the red flag was out, but based on the video I am not even sure it was being waved. If so it was very non commital at best. One worker was close to the driving line late in your run but no way was that the cause...did the red flag incident happen behind you? If so then the workers at the end of the course should NOT have flagged your run since you would not encounter whatever generated the red flag.

JoeLohr · **Joined:** Tue May 19, 2015 2:33 pm **Posts:** 3

Should have explained better: I was taken aside when I got back to grid and told someone spun close to the finish, took out a bunch of cones.

Keith Roberts · **Joined:** Wed Sep 17, 2014 12:14 pm **Posts:** 31

Hi Joe

I was working at 6. What I remember is that a radio call for something got "creamed". There a call for clarification from the bus on what was going on. Then the original guy responded (dont remember what was said). Dont remember when the course was red flagged. If I missed the call then I messed up. If it was in the middle of radio traffic determining what and where this was happening, I worked with the info I had.

Keith

Chuck Branscomb · **Posted:** Mon Nov 14, 2016 2:09 pm

JoeLohr wrote:

Should have explained better: I was taken aside when I got back to grid and told someone spun close to the finish, took out a bunch of cones.

If you were scolded for not stopping for a "red flag", it would appear the wrong tree was being barked at. I see nothing in the video. Ages (decades) ago when I was an autox chairman, I always stressed to workers that movement is the key that the human brain zeros in on. If you stand there and hold the flag, it's meaningless background clutter to a brain rapidly processing info, but if you are moving and you have the flag moving, the brain will zero in on that movement seen in peripheral vision, very rapidly and naturally.

RobLupella · **Posted:** Mon Nov 14, 2016 4:40 pm

I will raise my hand as the person who stopped Joe. After discussing with him my feeling is the same as his that the red flags were not being displayed properly nor at the proper time.

What I saw was a car spin and hit multiple cones and workers all over trying to get the car moving cones cleared etc. Radio call for red flag. Joe driving at speed through course. Someone on radio complaining that mazda 3 ran through red flag (expletive deleted).

After talking to Joe (hopefully not berating) I figured he did not see the flag or it wasn't being waved very forcefully. (understatement apparently).

So Joe is officially absolved of any misdeed after looking at video evidence. I really was not trying to be barking at you (wrong tree or not) and at the end I figured you just missed it. Thanks for the video it helps.

That said a couple of lessons learned for next season.

Rob

RobLupella · **Posted:** Mon Nov 14, 2016 4:41 pm

Chuck Branscomb wrote:

JoeLohr wrote:

Should have explained better: I was taken aside when I got back to grid and told someone spun close to the finish, took out a bunch of cones.

If you were scolded for not stopping for a "red flag", it would appear the wrong tree was being barked at. I see nothing in the video. Ages (decades) ago when I was an autox chairman, I always stressed to workers that movement is the key that the human brain zeros in on. If you stand there and hold the flag, it's meaningless background clutter to a brain rapidly processing info, but if you are moving and you have the flag moving, the brain will zero in on that movement seen in peripheral vision, very rapidly and naturally.

I actually agree with this and am going to change my instructions going forward

JoeLohr · **Joined:** Tue May 19, 2015 2:33 pm **Posts:** 3

RobLupella wrote:

Chuck Branscomb wrote:

JoeLohr wrote:

Should have explained better: I was taken aside when I got back to grid and told someone spun close to the finish, took out a bunch of cones.

If you were scolded for not stopping for a "red flag", it would appear the wrong tree was being barked at. I see nothing in the video. Ages (decades) ago when I was an autox chairman, I always stressed to workers that movement is the key that the human brain zeros in on. If you stand there and hold the flag, it's meaningless background clutter to a brain rapidly processing info, but if you are moving and you have the flag moving, the brain will zero in on that movement seen in peripheral vision, very rapidly and naturally.

I actually agree with this and am going to change my instructions going forward

Cool, that definitely makes me feel better. And no worries Rob, I have to say you were very polite considering what you'd seen and then heard on the radio.

DickRasmussen · **Posted:** Mon Nov 14, 2016 7:43 pm

Is it Tarheel that in driver meetings instructs workers to hold the red flag unfurled and STEADY vs. WAVING?

If so, I've never understood the reason for STEADY.

RobLupella · **Posted:** Mon Nov 14, 2016 10:57 pm

DickRasmussen wrote:

Is it Tarheel that in driver meetings instructs workers to hold the red flag unfurled and STEADY vs. WAVING?

If so, I've never understood the reason for STEADY.

It is something that has perpetuated for years. I happen to agree with Chuck that a waving flag catches your vision better. That said there were no flags waving or otherwise unfurled in Joe's video :roll:

RickyBeam · **Posted:** Wed Nov 16, 2016 1:18 am

DickRasmussen wrote:

Is it Tarheel that in driver meetings instructs workers to hold the red flag unfurled and STEADY vs. WAVING?

If so, I've never understood the reason for STEADY.

Yes (at least in rallyx.) That's so you have a large, unmistakable target to see. A flag flapping in the breeze could simply be that. Shaking the flag, as most people do, presents only a fraction of the flag to a driver -- unless you're a professional corner worker who's been taught how to wave one. Yes, there's a process, but I won't get into it; just hold it out like a road sign, over your head even.

(For rallyx, it's usually very dusty, so it's especially important to make it as visible and unmistakable as possible.)

Chuck Branscomb · **Posted:** Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:54 am

If you hold it out and don't move it, forget having a human brain zero in on the flag out of it's peripheral vision. Movement is key and the human brain is an awesome processor of movement out of the eye's direct line of sight.

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Wed Nov 16, 2016 10:54 am

Chuck Branscomb wrote:

If you hold it out and don't move it, forget having a human brain zero in on the flag out of it's peripheral vision. Movement is key and the human brain is an awesome processor of movement out of the eye's direct line of sight.

I agree. IMHO, not waving a flag makes zero sense. Just keep it unfurled but in your hand to keep it from flapping on its own plus it is ready for when you need it. Direction on how to do this at driver meeting yes, but I can't imagine anyone needs professional training to understand how to wave a flag!

Regarding the video, I would have felt nobody was trying to get my attention... other than they appeared to be too close to the course. Maybe I would have stopped out of concern for the workers safety and my own personal liability!

Richard

Vincent Keene · **Posted:** Wed Nov 16, 2016 11:06 am

Richard Casto wrote:

...I can't imagine anyone needs professional training to understand how to wave a flag!

You do know we've had to tell people multiple times not to run out in front of a moving car right? Common sense is a myth.

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Wed Nov 16, 2016 6:45 pm

Vincent Keene wrote:

Richard Casto wrote:

...I can't imagine anyone needs professional training to understand how to wave a flag!

You do know we've had to tell people multiple times not to run out in front of a moving car right? Common sense is a myth.

Oh, I agree they need instruction. But I also believe they (remember "they" is "us") are also instructable (if that's a word). Of course some may be thick headed.

Richard

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