Camaro or Mustang?

RodneyWright · **Posted:** Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:11 pm

I love an e46, especially the way the dash faces the driver and it's a great looking car. Hopefully Chuck will respond since he has the one ZHP car I hope to still buy someday. He and his daughter autox'd it in years past. A square setup on the tires helped w/ the push.

DickRasmussen · **Posted:** Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:52 pm

FYI my understanding is that the current Camaro's are oem with a camber adjustment "slot", or at least the 1LE versions are. If you get interested in a late model Camaro it would be worth checking.

Jordan Normark · **Posted:** Wed Mar 04, 2015 1:14 pm

Ok, So a little Friday humor here. What about reversing the stagger by running the rear rims on the front and fronts on the rear? This cant be legal in Street right? From what I have read, the ZHP runs a 47mm front and 51 rear offset (don't remember if that's positive or negative) but regardless, it would still be in allowance for the +-7mm offset. Assuming the 8.5" wheel will fit the front, understeer problem solved :lol:

Jordan Normark · **Posted:** Wed Mar 04, 2015 1:16 pm

[quote="Chad Culbertson\]I guess 4th gens don't have struts then? 5th gens sure do.[/quote]

Correct, 4th gens has Short/Long Arm setup.

RodneyWright · **Posted:** Wed Mar 04, 2015 1:58 pm

Jordan Normark wrote:

Ok, So a little Friday humor here. What about reversing the stagger by running the rear rims on the front and fronts on the rear? This cant be legal in Street right? From what I have read, the ZHP runs a 47mm front and 51 rear offset (don't remember if that's positive or negative) but regardless, it would still be in allowance for the +-7mm offset. Assuming the 8.5" wheel will fit the front, understeer problem solved :lol:

Friday humor on a Wed, interesting =).... I don't think offset is your problem, the wheel width is. What do those run, 8" front and 8.5" rear? I think in street/stock, you have to run what the car was delivered w/ size wise, and in their correct orientation. I defer to others that know more than I do.... Time to break out the solo manual on SCCA.com.

DickRasmussen · **Posted:** Wed Mar 04, 2015 2:27 pm

RodneyWright wrote:

Jordan Normark wrote:

Ok, So a little Friday humor here. What about reversing the stagger by running the rear rims on the front and fronts on the rear? This cant be legal in Street right? From what I have read, the ZHP runs a 47mm front and 51 rear offset (don't remember if that's positive or negative) but regardless, it would still be in allowance for the +-7mm offset. Assuming the 8.5" wheel will fit the front, understeer problem solved :lol:

Friday humor on a Wed, interesting =).... I don't think offset is your problem, the wheel width is. What do those run, 8" front and 8.5" rear? I think in street/stock, you have to run what the car was delivered w/ size wise, and in their correct orientation. I defer to others that know more than I do.... Time to break out the solo manual on SCCA.com.

Street requires that each end of the car comply with the "factory options" with no mix/match between ends and comply with the offset limits for that end. I "think" you also need to run option packages at both ends, not one option on the front and a different option on the rear. However, in regard to the +/- 1" diameter rule I "think" you can do those by "end" such as plus 1" in the front and even -1 inch in the rear. Check the rules and maybe even the clarifications.

Jordan Normark · **Posted:** Wed Mar 04, 2015 2:58 pm

I missed this part earlier with regard to the reverse Stagger:

"Except for modifications authorized below, Street Category cars must be
run as specified by the manufacturer with only standard equipment as defined
by these Rules. This requirement refers not just to individual parts,
but to combinations thereof which would have been ordered together on
a specific car. Any other modifications or equipment will place the car in
Street Touring®, Street Prepared, Street Modified, Prepared, or Modified
Categories as appropriate. Configurations involving damaged parts (e.g.,
blown fuses) are not typically authorized by the manufacturer and hence
are not allowed."

I had not thought about changing the diameter either front or rear as Dick pointed out, but if I changed diameters it would be to drop down to 17's all around, From what I have read, In addition to being 1" larger in diameter at 18", the ZHP comes with wheels that are 1/2" wider front and rear than the sport package cars. Since wheel width must remain the same in street, it looks like a ZHP would be a better starting point than a Sport Package 330i in this regard.

RodneyWright · **Posted:** Wed Mar 04, 2015 3:47 pm

if you're looking at wheels, dampers and sways, you're SO CLOSE to running ST~. My vote is to do the work once. If you're changing dampers, then go ahead and do the springs and be done w/ it. If you do street and then go to ST, you're doing the work twice. You may end up w/ a car that's not really ST competitive to start with, but at least your minimizing your work load and spend up front.

This way you can run a square set up w/ wheels/tires and correct for the camber to save your tires. Just something to think about. I've been down that road sooo many times... Think about your end game and drive towards that.

Jordan Normark · **Posted:** Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:18 pm

RodneyWright wrote:

if you're looking at wheels, dampers and sways, you're SO CLOSE to running ST~. My vote is to do the work once. If you're changing dampers, then go ahead and do the springs and be done w/ it. If you do street and then go to ST, you're doing the work twice. You may end up w/ a car that's not really ST competitive to start with, but at least your minimizing your work load and spend up front.

This way you can run a square set up w/ wheels/tires and correct for the camber to save your tires. Just something to think about. I've been down that road sooo many times... Think about your end game and drive towards that.

I agree with your logic, and if STX had multiple regular competitors in our club, I would go that way. I really enjoy competing in a class with other drivers of similarly prepared cars. It's just one of the ways I am weird

Yes there is PAX, but it's not the same thing. I am still considering an E-36 M3 since CS is so popular with us.

On a side note, I just got back from looking at the Black ZHP on craigslist and I found damage from at least 5 separate incidents including bondo in the right rear quarter panel with rust bubbling around the fender radius. The seller told me he had another offer for $4k and I told him to take it.

Chad Culbertson · **Posted:** Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:57 pm

DickRasmussen wrote:

FYI my understanding is that the current Camaro's are oem with a camber adjustment "slot", or at least the 1LE versions are. If you get interested in a late model Camaro it would be worth checking.

Correct, the top strut mount bolt is slotted, and there's a threaded hole to thread a bolt in to fine tune the camber. I'm not sure how much camber you can get total, i'll probably find out when I get performance chassis to align it after I put new struts and tires on.

I'm going to run 20x9 stock wheels all around with 275s and the stock 20x9s have a +40mm offset which makes them pretty close to the strut, so I may need to run a 5 or 10mm spacer to get some extra room.

There's a company making camber plates now, but they're quite pricey for the 5th gen.

This is a bit off topic, sorry. What do you guys think is a good camber to run to help save my shoulders while still not chewing up the inner shoulder? The Camaro is my DD, so I need to find some balance.

Jordan Normark · **Posted:** Wed Mar 04, 2015 5:16 pm

Chad Culbertson wrote:

This is a bit off topic, sorry. What do you guys think is a good camber to run to help save my shoulders while still not chewing up the inner shoulder? The Camaro is my DD, so I need to find some balance.

I know nothing about those cars, but my gut tells me as much as you can get. In my experience, inside wear becomes noticeable with more than 2 degrees or so on the miata. Will you have separate autocross wheels and tires? I am curious to see how much you can get in stock trim.

Chad Culbertson · **Posted:** Wed Mar 04, 2015 5:31 pm

Jordan Normark wrote:

Chad Culbertson wrote:

This is a bit off topic, sorry. What do you guys think is a good camber to run to help save my shoulders while still not chewing up the inner shoulder? The Camaro is my DD, so I need to find some balance.

I know nothing about those cars, but my gut tells me as much as you can get. In my experience, inside wear becomes noticeable with more than 2 degrees or so on the miata. Will you have separate autocross wheels and tires? I am curious to see how much you can get in stock trim.

I will probably have a separate setup eventually, but since CAM requires 200TW+ tires, honestly it might not be worth it for a separate setup.

Once I polish off the Nitto Invos I have a set of M/T Street Comps in 275/40R20 ready to go on. Currently it's on the factory staggered setup with 245s/275s.

RodneyWright · **Posted:** Wed Mar 04, 2015 6:39 pm

Chad Culbertson wrote:

This is a bit off topic, sorry. What do you guys think is a good camber to run to help save my shoulders while still not chewing up the inner shoulder? The Camaro is my DD, so I need to find some balance.

Camber isn't what kills tires, it's toe. I've been running -2degree camber for over 2 years on a zero toe alignment and no wear issues. Once you start running toe out, you kill the tires in short order. I'll caveat that to say I'm running 255's on the street. If you're going to run 275's all the time, then there might be an issue. Adjustable camber plates will be your best work-around for that issue. Set to zero toe for the street w/ minor camber and then set it whatever for autox.

RodneyWright · **Posted:** Wed Mar 04, 2015 6:40 pm

Jordan Normark wrote:

On a side note, I just got back from looking at the Black ZHP on craigslist and I found damage from at least 5 separate incidents including bondo in the right rear quarter panel with rust bubbling around the fender radius. The seller told me he had another offer for $4k and I told him to take it.

smart....

DickRasmussen · **Posted:** Wed Mar 04, 2015 7:46 pm

Regarding Camaro 1LE camber from the slot adjustment a friend who runs national events said about -2 deg as I recall.

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