Help with Miata classing

Les Davis · **Joined:** Fri Aug 29, 2003 2:04 pm **Posts:** 2059

JerryMaloney wrote:

So I was playing with the ne wcar and unlike the Z06, this thing can't be steered with the throttle :shock:

Do I need to use the steering wheel?

but seriously, I am now considering a hard dog roll bar in case I want to take this to the track occasionally. I am again confused by the stock rules. So I can buy a roll bar but not one that has any cross bracing?

Sounds like you need a supercharger. :-)

As for the roll bar in a mostly street driven Miata, I know there are plenty who will debate this, but just think about what happens when your unhelmeted head comes in contact with the roll bar in the event of any collision, then sit in a Miata with a roll bar and see how close your head is to the roll bar, then watch some crash test videos on youtube and see just how much ones head can move around in a collision even when in a stock seat belt. Unless you actually manage to flip the thing upside down, the rollbar is a huge liability IMO in a street car in most accident situations not to mention added weight in a car that REALLY doesn't need added weight, that's why I pulled mine out of the Miata that I had paid good money to have installed.

michaelsmiller · **Posted:** Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:17 pm

[quote="JerryMaloney"]So I was playing with the ne wcar and unlike the Z06, this thing can't be steered with the throttle :shock:

Do I need to use the steering wheel?/quote]
Jerry, you are graduating from a hammer to a scalpel. Both are tools, but you apply them differently. You actually have a steering wheel that does something quickly and along with the suspension, does so very accurately. On street tires, the Miata has a lot more grip. If you make it too loose then you are giving up grip for the sake of yeehaw. My NC with 225 wide tires pulls 1.24 G's. Your goal is to harness "Pucker Power" and use it to your advantage. In a Miata, you can only loose time. Since there is no power, you can't make it up. Your goal is to preserve momentum. This requires smooth but higher corner entry and earlier gas application. At the limit the Miata can be steered with your feet, it's just more composed. You can also change the balance easily by changing the air pressure in the tires. More air in the rear means more over steer. In a Corvette, you can make up for a lot due to it's shear power. A Miata will teach you how to drive efficiently and fast. When you're done, you'll be faster in the Miata as well as the Vette. I own 3 corner case cars, rear wheel with no power, front wheel drive with power, and rear wheel drive with a hell of a lot of power. Enjoy your variety of vehicles.

JerryMaloney · **Posted:** Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:10 am

Les Davis wrote:

JerryMaloney wrote:

So I was playing with the ne wcar and unlike the Z06, this thing can't be steered with the throttle :shock:

Do I need to use the steering wheel?

but seriously, I am now considering a hard dog roll bar in case I want to take this to the track occasionally. I am again confused by the stock rules. So I can buy a roll bar but not one that has any cross bracing?

Sounds like you need a supercharger. :-)

As for the roll bar in a mostly street driven Miata, I know there are plenty who will debate this, but just think about what happens when your unhelmeted head comes in contact with the roll bar in the event of any collision, then sit in a Miata with a roll bar and see how close your head is to the roll bar, then watch some crash test videos on youtube and see just how much ones head can move around in a collision even when in a stock seat belt. Unless you actually manage to flip the thing upside down, the rollbar is a huge liability IMO in a street car in most accident situations not to mention added weight in a car that REALLY doesn't need added weight, that's why I pulled mine out of the Miata that I had paid good money to have installed.

That makes a lot of sense. I don't think I want a roll bar now. Maybe if I do want to track it I will get one that is easy to install and remove afterwards.

JerryMaloney · **Posted:** Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:13 am

michaelsmiller wrote:

JerryMaloney wrote:

So I was playing with the ne wcar and unlike the Z06, this thing can't be steered with the throttle :shock:

Do I need to use the steering wheel?/quote]
Jerry, you are graduating from a hammer to a scalpel. Both are tools, but you apply them differently. You actually have a steering wheel that does something quickly and along with the suspension, does so very accurately. On street tires, the Miata has a lot more grip. If you make it too loose then you are giving up grip for the sake of yeehaw. My NC with 225 wide tires pulls 1.24 G's. Your goal is to harness "Pucker Power" and use it to your advantage. In a Miata, you can only loose time. Since there is no power, you can't make it up. Your goal is to preserve momentum. This requires smooth but higher corner entry and earlier gas application. At the limit the Miata can be steered with your feet, it's just more composed. You can also change the balance easily by changing the air pressure in the tires. More air in the rear means more over steer. In a Corvette, you can make up for a lot due to it's shear power. A Miata will teach you how to drive efficiently and fast. When you're done, you'll be faster in the Miata as well as the Vette. I own 3 corner case cars, rear wheel with no power, front wheel drive with power, and rear wheel drive with a hell of a lot of power. Enjoy your variety of vehicles.

This thing is going to be fun! I think the real reason I bought it was not only to try something very different, but also to try and improve my driving. The Vette really does mask many mistakes as I can just get back on the power and not loose too much time. I do think driving this for awhile will make me much faster in any car.

Les Davis · **Joined:** Fri Aug 29, 2003 2:04 pm **Posts:** 2059

JerryMaloney wrote:

michaelsmiller wrote:

JerryMaloney wrote:

So I was playing with the ne wcar and unlike the Z06, this thing can't be steered with the throttle :shock:

Do I need to use the steering wheel?/quote]
Jerry, you are graduating from a hammer to a scalpel. Both are tools, but you apply them differently. You actually have a steering wheel that does something quickly and along with the suspension, does so very accurately. On street tires, the Miata has a lot more grip. If you make it too loose then you are giving up grip for the sake of yeehaw. My NC with 225 wide tires pulls 1.24 G's. Your goal is to harness "Pucker Power" and use it to your advantage. In a Miata, you can only loose time. Since there is no power, you can't make it up. Your goal is to preserve momentum. This requires smooth but higher corner entry and earlier gas application. At the limit the Miata can be steered with your feet, it's just more composed. You can also change the balance easily by changing the air pressure in the tires. More air in the rear means more over steer. In a Corvette, you can make up for a lot due to it's shear power. A Miata will teach you how to drive efficiently and fast. When you're done, you'll be faster in the Miata as well as the Vette. I own 3 corner case cars, rear wheel with no power, front wheel drive with power, and rear wheel drive with a hell of a lot of power. Enjoy your variety of vehicles.

This thing is going to be fun! I think the real reason I bought it was not only to try something very different, but also to try and improve my driving. The Vette really does mask many mistakes as I can just get back on the power and not loose too much time. I do think driving this for awhile will make me much faster in any car.

I contend that this presumption is essentially false. WHEN DRIVEN CORRECTLY ALL CARS ARE "MOMENTUM CARS" ON AN AUTOCROSS COURSE. This is regardless of power to weight ratios. The exception is a course in which you actually have a long straight without a steering input, this is very uncommon on most autocross courses, tracks are a different story. If you have made a mistake on an autocross course that causes you to be off line, most of the time more throttle is NOT going to make your situation any better or "fix" the mistake you just made. The smaller/lighter cars like a Miata actually have the advantage that you can use minor throttle/steering adjustments to get the car back on line much more easily and get back on full throttle much sooner. You and Mike are right that you will learn a lot from running a Miata, it is a marvelous autocross learning tool primarily because it is so responsive and forgiving. It will most likely make you a better driver in the Covette but only if you realize that you need to drive the Corvette exactly the same way you drive the Miata except that you must be much more careful with throttle application because if you get over eager and make a mistake, its much harder to get 3500 lbs back where you want it than 2400 lbs. Excessive power mostly just serves to get you in more trouble more easily on most autocross courses, but it sure is fun.

RobLupella · **Posted:** Thu Apr 03, 2014 12:32 pm

Les Davis wrote:

JerryMaloney wrote:

So I was playing with the ne wcar and unlike the Z06, this thing can't be steered with the throttle :shock:

Do I need to use the steering wheel?

but seriously, I am now considering a hard dog roll bar in case I want to take this to the track occasionally. I am again confused by the stock rules. So I can buy a roll bar but not one that has any cross bracing?

Sounds like you need a supercharger. :-)

As for the roll bar in a mostly street driven Miata, I know there are plenty who will debate this, but just think about what happens when your unhelmeted head comes in contact with the roll bar in the event of any collision, then sit in a Miata with a roll bar and see how close your head is to the roll bar, then watch some crash test videos on youtube and see just how much ones head can move around in a collision even when in a stock seat belt. Unless you actually manage to flip the thing upside down, the rollbar is a huge liability IMO in a street car in most accident situations not to mention added weight in a car that REALLY doesn't need added weight, that's why I pulled mine out of the Miata that I had paid good money to have installed.

Agree 110% with this. I was about to reply that all AX vehicles are momentum cars. You don't make up time with hp, you just cut your losses. I also agree with the roll bar comment. Don't get one for AX you don't need the weight penalty and if you are going to drive it on the street it will be a danger to an unpadded head. It is fun and will be fun to drive at an AX. Can't wait to see how you like it

I contend that this presumption is essentially false. WHEN DRIVEN CORRECTLY ALL CARS ARE "MOMENTUM CARS" ON AN AUTOCROSS COURSE. This is regardless of power to weight ratios. The exception is a course in which you actually have a long straight without a steering input, this is very uncommon on most autocross courses, tracks are a different story. If you have made a mistake on an autocross course that causes you to be off line, most of the time more throttle is NOT going to make your situation any better or "fix" the mistake you just made. The smaller/lighter cars like a Miata actually have the advantage that you can use minor throttle/steering adjustments to get the car back on line much more easily and get back on full throttle much sooner. You and Mike are right that you will learn a lot from running a Miata, it is a marvelous autocross learning tool primarily because it is so responsive and forgiving. It will most likely make you a better driver in the Covette but only if you realize that you need to drive the Corvette exactly the same way you drive the Miata except that you must be much more careful with throttle application because if you get over eager and make a mistake, its much harder to get 3500 lbs back where you want it than 2400 lbs. Excessive power mostly just serves to get you in more trouble more easily on most autocross courses, but it sure is fun.

JamesMilko · **Posted:** Thu Apr 03, 2014 12:32 pm

JerryMaloney wrote:

So I was playing with the ne wcar and unlike the Z06, this thing can't be steered with the throttle :shock:

Do I need to use the steering wheel?

but seriously, I am now considering a hard dog roll bar in case I want to take this to the track occasionally. I am again confused by the stock rules. So I can buy a roll bar but not one that has any cross bracing?

Turn in faster.

Miatas are very steerable with the throttle at the limit.

michaelsmiller · **Posted:** Thu Apr 03, 2014 2:26 pm

Maybe I didn’t say it right. There are plenty of times in the Miata on an autox course where I am waiting for the car to come up to speed. I feel as if I can pull out ores and row. Never had that problem in the Corvette. What I meant is if you loose to much speed, for example, entering a corner, the Miata can not accelerate enough to get back some of that time by accelerating out of a corner. In a Miata, you have to work very hard to get your entry speed just right. Of course that is also true for a Vette, it’s just not as obvious.

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