Adopting a new idea for more entries?

Chris Vasques · **Joined:** Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:19 pm **Posts:** 24

Great thread, thanks for starting it Steve. As a newcomer to the club I am having the same struggles.

You have all been very supportive. This is an exceptional sport but it has a very steep learning curve. With limited opportunity to practice I find myself trying to learn how to drive and make car adjustments in the heat of battle. With predictable results.

The prospect of continued painfully slow progress can be daunting as times.

I think that more frequent opportunities to drive, and possibly more "test and tune" sessions will go a long way towards increasing novice retention.

Just my two cents...

Steven Carter · **Posted:** Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:14 am

BTW, Chris...i saw you migrated from TIR to STR. Welcome!

Chuck Branscomb · **Posted:** Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:27 am

Chris,

Taking an Evo or Solopro school early on in your autox "education" is massively worth the money. You'll get lots of seat time and begin to ingrain very good habits early on before vices of all sorts take hold.

On the same subject, the BMW CCA, National Capital Chapter, holds autocross schools the Saturday before each of its first three autocrosses each year (in a previous lifetime, I was the autox co-chair there back when nobody really knew how to autocross, lol, i.e. closing in on 30 years ago now) . In the past, THSCC used to pay for some sites for the weekend (perhaps still do), so we could setup on Saturday, or whatever the actual reasons were. Perhaps it wouldn't be that big of an deal from a site perspective to use Saturdays early in the season. It would be a lot of additional work coupled with many experienced volunteers needed, but a similar program in THSCC would of course be greatly beneficial to newcomers and everyone else for that matter.

EDIT: I see they are using separate weekends now. All their events are on Saturdays this year, and they are putting on three autox schools. The last one is this Saturday.

Steven Carter · **Posted:** Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:34 am

Jordan Normark wrote:

As I read this thread I kept thinking "fun runs", then Andrew mentioned it. Seems a lot simpler, and we used to have them a lot back in the early 2000's, like 50% of events or so, and I only feel a little hotter and more tired than I did back then :wink:

True, they would not be guaranteed but if offered I would participate.

They are similar to fun runs, without a doubt, but have two distinct key useful features for the club. (Obviously, as a driver if you sign up for STO you have the benefit of counting on getting the extra runs, make family arrangements if needed, and prepare for what element of driving needs work on that day.)

First, it is guaranteed revenue (well, we could offer refunds pursuant to our usual policy, but I would imagine that if someone pays $50+ for autocross they are going to be there) as we could require that you MUST pre-register AND prepay if you plan to run STO. Having 10 club members driving STO at each of the typical eight season events nets the club ~$2000 over eight events, obviously more if we expand to 9-10 events. That is useful revenue for the club.

Second, it guarantees an extra group of workers who either work course/grid or cleanup or whatever to make the event run even better/smoother than it already does. When i was worker coordinator we had a couple of events where the run groups were sparse enough as to incompletely fill the worker posts, and this should help alleviate that potential problem.

Finally, if we ever get back to 125+ drivers/event then there may no longer be space for STO. Perfectly understandable scenario, IMO.

If the club chooses to proceed, I would suggest a quiet rollout, or an increasing class cap initially to make sure the mechanics work. I don't think there will be 30+ drivers who would immediately want this, but I don't want to get overwhelmed either and mess things up.

JamesShort · **Posted:** Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:54 am

I like this discussion and I think it's somewhat converging to a reasonable plan.

Revenue = awesome, prereg mandate for planning = excellent idea.

I'm also in agreement that we should start conservatively. Maybe 5 people can do it and just see how it goes. If it's as if nothing change we can bump that a bit at a time.

I'm not so sure about the competitive edge thing because I still think that 2 driver cars are sent quicker than they should.....I hate having Jeremy roll in and as I'm checking tire temp/pressures, grid is already telling me to go because I want to check the tires and get into the zone but that's another issue all together.

As long as it doesn't cause a nightmare for WCs and run groups and what not, then I see it as a win win. If we have turn outs justifying 4 run groups then it makes assigning the second work assignment easier, but with 3 run groups, I'm sure we can find lateral work positions for the STO folks to fulfill.

Steven Carter · **Posted:** Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:45 am

One other thought: I think James M. makes a good point about the possibility of mis-perception. Obviously, if it is explained to concerned people that this is initially a test/pilot program idea or feasibility study, explain the ramifications/benefits to them etc then I am sure they will understand. HOWEVER, if a driver signs up for STO and does not work I would fully support that driver being disallowed from driving STO for at least the rest of the season. This should be strictly enforced, and I would happily volunteer to be the one to inform the rule-breakers, act as WC for STO drivers to ensure they work twice...whatever. It is not acceptable to take twice the runs without the added work requirement.

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:25 pm

I have been out of the autocross game for a few years now, but it isn't going to stop me from commenting!!

Chrisvasques wrote:

With limited opportunity to practice I find myself trying to learn how to drive and make car adjustments in the heat of battle.

My advice Chris is to try to avoid the "battle" part early in your career. If you feel you need to just get seat time, then I would not look at what your competition is doing (timewise) during an event. I know you want to win (who doesn't), but I think if you focus on good technique, etc and not get hung up on winning, you might find you end up setting better times. I say this without having any idea how you are doing now or what your driving style (good or bad) is. For example a common issue (that you might not have) is an attempt to over drive to "go faster". A great example of this is when you screw up early in the run and then "drive harder" or worse "drive angry" in an attempt to make up for the mistake. There is no way to gain lost time. But you can put a mistake behind you and focus on driving the rest of the course correctly at at the proper pace. Also, you might also try to avoid making car adjustment at events until you feel you are to the point that car adjustments are actually helping and not something you are thinking about while driving. In short, look ahead, drive, have fun and don't over think too much.

Chuck Branscomb wrote:

Taking an Evo or Solopro school early on in your autox "education" is massively worth the money. You'll get lots of seat time and begin to ingrain very good habits early on before vices of all sorts take hold.

Absolutely. Also, while there is no substitute for seat time, there is also an entire mental side of the game. Those types of schools hit both of those points. I think those who wait until they "know what they are doing" before they try out a school just end up thinking "I wish I had done this years ago". I say a season or less is enough to get maximum impact from a school like that. And then after maybe another season or so, you can go and do it again and still learn a lot.

Richard

Matt McGrain · **Posted:** Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:08 pm

The idea of possibly doing a 'double autocross' day by running twice and working twice is probably the least complex way to do it I'd imagine, plus you'd probably never be short on workers, or need to run 3 run groups if you get at least a dozen people that opt for it. You're getting twice the value of the day, if you're on street tires especially but you'd definitely want to bring your lunch and save plenty of sunscreen and water if you're shagging cones during two groups. It sounds fun though but I realize it would take some head scratching and it could probably only be a good idea at an event where the attendance is below ~100 or so.

The biggest challenge (other than logistical T&S ones) would be for the cars that would normally run in groups 3 & 4 wouldn't be able to get extra runs unless the earlier ones in the day counted instead. Then again, you might not want to be running before your class as it might not be fair if the course is faster then. Plenty of pros and cons (if it would work)...

Chris Vasques · **Joined:** Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:19 pm **Posts:** 24

Thanks for all the good advice, I appreciate it.

And yes, I cleverly maneuvered myself out of TIR into STR with some recent upgrades. I decided to build the car I wanted rather than chase PAX. Probably another rookie mistake.

Also, from my perspective, I would be more than happy to pay more, work an extra shift, and help out however is needed for the chance for some extra practice. I'd gladly participate in a beta test.

Les Davis · **Joined:** Fri Aug 29, 2003 2:04 pm **Posts:** 2059

Chrisvasques wrote:

And yes, I cleverly maneuvered myself out of TIR into STR with some recent upgrades. I decided to build the car I wanted rather than chase PAX. Probably another rookie mistake.

Nothing wrong with that at all unless of course you think you're gonna win a SCCA national championship sometime soon, then maybe you wanna limit yourself to some SCCA rule book class. However, don't expect mods to you car to somehow immediately make you faster at autocross, some may, some may not, it the nut behind the wheel that matters most.

Charlie Guthrie · **Joined:** Thu Aug 28, 2003 8:14 pm **Posts:** 832

Just to mess with everyone's head... were there not some recent rumblings about wanting to split the run groups into morning and afternoon groups so that folks could dedicate less of their weekend day to autocross? It seems to me that adding runs is counter to the concept of getting the event done faster.
Now if we could just figure out how to let the STO drivers get their runs in early then work two afternoon shifts back to back while the sleepy heads cruise in at Noon and just drive :lol:

If the officers and event chairs think about STO very long they'll realize that their event day will be just as long as if they stuck around for fun runs...so why not just bribe them to stay for fun runs at every event? Double their pay!!!
Name withheld.....

Steven Carter · **Posted:** Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:48 pm

Charlie Guthrie wrote:

Just to mess with everyone's head... were there not some recent rumblings about wanting to split the run groups into morning and afternoon groups so that folks could dedicate less of their weekend day to autocross? It seems to me that adding runs is counter to the concept of getting the event done faster.
Now if we could just figure out how to let the STO drivers get their runs in early then work two afternoon shifts back to back while the sleepy heads cruise in at Noon and just drive :lol:

If the officers and event chairs think about STO very long they'll realize that their event day will be just as long as if they stuck around for fun runs...so why not just bribe them to stay for fun runs at every event? Double their pay!!!
Name withheld.....

Hi Charlie,

I dropped the ball responding to you...I was thinking we could discuss this at the meeting, but it seemed too loud and the discussion here has been very good and in-depth.

Yes, a while back we thought about ways to bring in more casual/novice drivers. This included morning/afternoon run groups, hired help and other ideas but was rejected (IIRC) because it (a) forced officers, ECs etc to stay all day running the event while all the drivers got to show up for only half the event and (b) was unwieldy and unworkable. We decided that it was too much effort and I think we didn't have a critical mass of drivers to make the worker coordination function well. Interestingly, many of the ones complaining about autocross and its mandatory volunteer nature have since moved on.

Now we are in a situation where there is a cultural/demographic shift away from motorsports, at least with young drivers. Our driver totals are consistently below 100, most recently 61 drivers at NCCAR. Some of that may be location, some of it scheduling, but a lot of it has to do with waning enthusiasm from those who might become interested in the sport as a novice.

Now, we as a club can affirm that waning interest by "dedicating less of their weekend day to autocross" and "getting the event done faster" but doesn't that mean we are doing something (autocross) that we don't like? Why do it at all if that's the case? (Rhetorical question, obviously) So, I suggested we consider the counterpoint: add value to those who DO show up. Increase the seat time, be it an STO class, 8 runs per driver for all, guaranteed fun runs after competition...whatever. It seems to me that people who show up are those who want to be there--the casual entrant is rarer and rarer. (Obviously, the Novice program is not at fault for this, and we drew a great number of novices to our school but very few returned for events later in the year. Not sure why, as our post-Novice school survey had nothing but praise for the event. Maybe "casual entrant" means 1 event per year...) So why not maximize revenue from those who are willing to pay more, in exchange for maximizing their driving experience?

Anyway, I'm glad Folks in Charge are considering this. It might not be workable this season,as Jimmy V is upon us and event#8 is shared with NCR. Maybe event #9 could be a test run...who knows. I hope something like this is in place for next season, because I think it helps add value to THSCC events and helps make people better drivers.

Steven Spampinato · **Posted:** Sat Jul 20, 2013 12:50 am

Steven Carter wrote:

Zach Hill wrote:

If a person wanted to run their regular class and then get another set of runs in STO (and not count the times for the day), what if they did the STO runs in their normal run group and were treated as a two-driver car? Wouldn't get an advantage for that day in competition, would get twice the runs, and shouldn't really put any more strain on the workers. Have the STO person receive an extra "special" work assignment, like cleaning the course or something else. Win/win?

^^^That's a great idea, Mr AutoX VP--especially for the three run group scneario. :thumbsup:

Make it so! (It would be helpful to still record times for comparison purposes, as they would be registered as a driver in STO so as not to mess up AXWare too much)

I hope I am not being redundant, but what happens when we get to many STO drivers. Plus if we STO we need to trim the waiting time between runs. One single entry car go, one STO, and again and again.

In the past, I have seen some individuals in grid take a long time between runs.
More than the 5 standard minutes…it is 5 max between runs…right?
What about starting the first car off one hour earlier? Or do the STO events later in the season for max daylight?
I am all for more seat time as well, this year has been another “un-eventful” season for me.

Scott Johnson · **Posted:** Sat Jul 20, 2013 5:22 pm

Steven Spampinato wrote:

Steven Carter wrote:

In the past, I have seen some individuals in grid take a long time between runs.
More than the 5 standard minutes…it is 5 max between runs…right?
What about starting the first car off one hour earlier?

Backwards. Supposed to be a MINIMUM of 5 minutes between runs. Something 2 driver cars would count as a luxury these days.

Rob Keehner · **Posted:** Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:56 pm

The 5 minute rule is dumb.

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