Z-Max AX June 29

Patrice Bousquet · **Posted:** Fri Jun 21, 2013 10:52 am

I register for this AX with the Abarth and yesterday I received the following:

Patrice,
I am sorry to inform you that your Fiat Abarth will NOT be allowed to compete at the CCR Autocross Event at zMax on June 29th.
The Fiat Abarth is way too unstable of a vehicle to compete at our events. I can not allow your Fiat to run and potentially ruin our good standing with zMax.
I have attached a JPG of a Fiat Abarth doing a stoppie, to show you the potential instability of your car. Any car that can do this, will not run at a CCR autocross event.
Regards,
Mike Licursi
CCR Solo Chairman

On the 3 AX I have done with THSCC did my car look unstable at any time?
From the driver side it doesn't at all.
He is basing is assumption on the following picture and I don't think I can do that with my car.
There is also another Abarth registered and he didn't received that message yesterday

Also I found the 2 following pictures so if he is true with his statement " Any car that can do this, will not run at a CCR autocross event. There should not be any of these cars competing also. I send him these 2 pictures.

JamesShort · **Posted:** Fri Jun 21, 2013 11:07 am

There is a simple solution. Ask him to provide the citing from the SCCA solo rules that precludes the driving of the Fiat Abarth in Solo 2.

Only the non-Abarth is excluded from Stock class. The Abarth is quite explicitly allowed in G stock however and Feinberg has run one on r comps at National Events. Also, stock class exclusions are allowed in their ST* classes on the assumption that suspension work is performed that mitigate the SSF concerns in stock trim.

Furthermore, you are on street tires (and no offense, not great ones) so the peak lateral and longitudinal forces are much lower than if it were on R comps.

BriceJohnson · **Joined:** Thu Apr 13, 2006 7:33 am **Posts:** 2230

Yeah, the SCCA classed the Abarth in G-stock. Jim Feinberg drove one in a national tour event if I remember correctly. I wouldn't get confrontational with him about it (because Mike is a confrontational guy and it will just escalate). Just calmly explain that you are aware that the Fiat 500 is excluded from stock class and you are aware of that, but that the Abarth has a stock classification per the SCCA and is not excluded from running (mainly owing to the lowered, stiffer suspension). You could also ask about the Trailblazer SS or the X-runner truck on r compounds that I've seen them let run before at Zmax, but that goes back to the "don't be confrontational" part I was mentioning. . .

He probably just thought you were a noob (he thinks everyone is compared to him) which is why he attached the picture.

BriceJohnson · **Joined:** Thu Apr 13, 2006 7:33 am **Posts:** 2230

Found it. Page 22:

http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/ass ... k-june.pdf

jeremy gast · **Posted:** Fri Jun 21, 2013 11:24 am

Jim did run one at Nationals and THERE was tons of talk because they did three wheel the car close to finish with tons and tons of people watching.

I think he is just trying to protect the property. Zmax is not exactly flat. It would be different if it was cherry point.

We ALL know pavement is getting harder and harder to keep and find.

Patrice Bousquet · **Posted:** Fri Jun 21, 2013 11:45 am

Here what i reply to him yesterday:

Mike

I already did 4 AX with the car with no problem, the picture you show there as nothing to do with autocross and was probably done deliberately. You can check the last 3 event results of the THSCC and you will see me in the results. The car is not unstable and handle pretty good I will say and don’t forget I am in STC class and the car as a set of lowering spring and no sticky tire.
I don’t see any problem even with a stock car. It is not worse that a Golf GTI lifting the inside rear wheel. Also I’m not new to autocross i have been doing AX for 34 years.
I really don’t see any problem with the car.

You can call me if you want 919-577-9152
Patrice
You can talk with Jinx Jordan he knows me.

Then i send him a second e-mail with the picture of the Z06 and Civic with the text:

Do Corvette Z06 and Civic are disallowed also?

So far no reply from him.

Patrice Bousquet · **Posted:** Fri Jun 21, 2013 11:51 am

JamesShort wrote:

Furthermore, you are on street tires (and no offense, not great ones) so the peak lateral and longitudinal forces are much lower than if it were on R comps.

That I agree with you, I just want to wear them down to put something better like the ZII.

Jordan Normark · **Posted:** Fri Jun 21, 2013 12:22 pm

I saw the first post and thought his email was a joke. Way too unstable? The photos shown look like relatively straight line braking to me, not cars that are out of control or about to roll, or tumble end over end for that matter. I plan to be there on the 29th for the first time at Z-Max, good to know in advance that I shouldn't do any "stopies" in the Miata :lol:

Steven Carter · **Posted:** Fri Jun 21, 2013 12:59 pm

Maybe they just want to be protective of their standing at ZMax? Somehow I think the wording of the email means that there is no room for discussion, so don't be too disappointed if they hold their ground. Each group has some latitude to ensure safety at their events, and this may be out of bounds for them...I don't know Mike but getting confrontational with another club is probably not very productive.

(edit: BTW, I agree that excluding a car that is explicitly allowed does seem like a bit of a stretch)

How would we react if someone questioned why we don't run Junior karts? Oh, waitaminnit.....

Andrew Jonell · **Joined:** Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:43 pm **Posts:** 1350

I'll let you borrow the Mazda2 for the weekend and only request that you get the rear wheel at least a foot off the ground through every single element. Shouldn't be too hard.

I would figure that since CCR is actually CCR SCCA that they would adhere to the SCCA rulebook. I know that we're in a special situation because we have no overlords.

BriceJohnson · **Joined:** Thu Apr 13, 2006 7:33 am **Posts:** 2230

I think you are best to not argue the safety or not safety of your car or any other car, but to argue based on the SCCA rulebook. Your car has a legal stock class and meets the SCCA's rollover requirements. Period. You should be allowed to run it with the no front swaybar, a really loud (but compliant with noise regulations) muffler, remote reservoir fancy shocks (or completely blown stock shocks for that matter) and as big of r compounds as you can fit on the stock wheels. The fact that you are running it with lowering springs and on street tires is nice and adds to the safety factory, but is irrelevant for purposes of whether they have grounds to exclude you from running (assuming the car passes tech as well of course).

Bringing other cars, experience of the driver, and the logic of the SEB into the discussion just confuses the matter. James, correct me if I'm wrong, but our policy is to follow the SCCA rules with respect to rollover risk, correct? We've turned down a Smart Car, and the Mazda2 meets (barely) the requirements from what I understand.

RodneyWright · **Posted:** Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:44 pm

^^^^this^^^^

You need to argue your point via the SCCA rules. Don't let this get personal....

Patrice Bousquet · **Posted:** Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:15 pm

The other registered Abarth received the e-mail also but it is slightly different but he is still having the phrase : Any car that can do this, will not run at a CCR autocross event So what will he do with the Z06 and the Civic. Any one having an image of a S2000 doing a stoppie?

I am sorry to inform you that your Fiat Abarth will NOT be allowed to compete at the CCR Autocross Event at zMax on June 29th.

The Fiat Abarth is way too unstable of a vehicle to compete at our events. I can not allow your Fiat to run and potentially ruin our good standing with zMax. The courses are always high speed, reaching near 70mph in spots. And your Fiat is not made to handle the transitional speeds you will be encountering at zMax.
I have attached a JPG of a Fiat Abarth doing a stoppie, to show you the potential instability of your car. Any car that can do this, will not run at a CCR autocross event.

I see that you prepaid with PayPal, and I can refund your money if you can't find another car to drive. Let me know.

Regards,
Mike Licursi
CCR Solo Chairman

Here what the other guy reply to him.

I don't understand, maybe you can explain more.

I thought this was an SCCA Solo event, and the Abarth model is cleared for SCCA events. That photo is probably someone just doing some stunts, without a helmet, without a number, and in Europe judging by the license plate.

Are you saying this is a different type of course that will have different speeds (like a 2nd gear only) or the course is different than standard SCCA Solo?

Either way I understand that safety is #1 and that you have the authority to make this ruling, but I was really looking forward to competing in GS for the South Carolina Region points.

Still no reply to my e-mail of yesterday.

By the way the Cartech Abarth picture he used is having 240 hp and 380nm of torque that should be fun.

Steven Carter · **Posted:** Sat Jun 22, 2013 3:00 am

Just checked the registration page, and a Fiat Abarth from SCR is registered in GS....is that the guy they earlier rejected?

Zach Hill · **Posted:** Sat Jun 22, 2013 9:54 am

Patrice Bousquet wrote:

Mike Licursi

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Z-Max AX June 29

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