Turning a beater into an autocross car

Bill Aycock · **Joined:** Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:55 pm **Posts:** 117

I originally came in to autocrossing with the thought that I would do it with my day-to-day car. Having been around for a bit now, i see that many people do have dedicated autocross cars. I also know next to nothing about engines and am looking to this hobby to improve on my mechanical knowledge and skill.

Well, got to thinking about if I were to go hunt for a beater to turn into a dedicated autocross car, what would I look for? In high school, the car i wanted was the first generation eagle talon with all wheel drive. I believe at least one member of the club is running a DSM engine car (talon/eclipse/laser) for rally cross. This thought has turned in to a real bug in my brain.

This would be a long term pet project, not something i would expect to have out on course next season. What's the story on these cars/engines from an autocross standpoint? What are the caveats about trying to fix up a beater for autocross? Someone on craigslist up in VA just posted the car i'm looking for for $500 (needs a lot of work) and I'm tempted. Is this just stupid? What do i need to know before getting myself into this?

Anybody interested in teaming up to refit a first generation eagle talon awd tsi? :lol:

Andrew Jonell · **Joined:** Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:43 pm **Posts:** 1350

DSMs are the new IROC-Z.

If you're looking for a challenge, pick a class and look at the competition. I've been driving with Tarheel long enough to see a few popularity spikes across the seasons. The past 2 years have been S2000 heavy, and before that we had something similar in CSP and FS.

Otherwise, I think a first-gen DSM would be awesome as a project because you could do autocross, rallycross, and track. You do have to figure in what's an acceptable broken car to working car ratio.

(please note that my car has been perpetually broken for the past 3 years)

Chris Halweg · **Posted:** Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:56 pm

My extremely limited impression of DSM's is to stay away unless you want to be wrenching all of the time.

Ryan Holton · **Posted:** Wed Jun 19, 2013 2:01 pm

Quote:

DSM's: Making ordinary people into mechanics since 1989.

I can say that with authority as way back in the stone ages, 2001, I had kinda got hooked on autocross driving this in 2000

and was right where you were. My Cavalier was...well a Cavalier and a automatic at that. A dedicated autocross car was the answer. A friend of a friend was selling is 1991 AWD Talon, $1,000. Paint was shot, wouldn't run quite right but it was FAST

and it sure as hell taught me to be a mechanic. I had a whole bunch of fun driving and wrenching on that car. Never rallycrossed it (sold it just as THSCC started the program) but extensive autox and a few track events. I even took it to the drag strip and ran several low 13 second timeslips. I ended up selling it because of my neverending love affair with Honda CRX's

Issues:
-Finding an unmolested one is damn near impossible
-The transfer cases leak but the fix is easy and cheap
-The transmissions shift are horrible. Terrible shifting and will break with hard launches. You can spend a grand and have it "upgraded" to work decently.
-The motors are beasts, strong, powerfull. Mine took 22psi (at the drag strip) with no problems.
-While they do break, often, virtually every fix is WELL documented on vfaq.com

All that said, I would love to own another one but it would have to be the right one. It would not be my pick for a dedicated cheap autox car. That would be a Mazda Miata, Honda CRX Si, E36 BMW or Honda Civic Si. All 3 are cheaper, easier to maintain and have multiple places for competitiveness. If you wanted a dark horse, I'd also look at both generations of 240sx.

I'd suggest looking at this thread for an inexpensive E36 STX build
http://www.roadraceautox.com/showthread.php?t=44341

Les Davis · **Joined:** Fri Aug 29, 2003 2:04 pm **Posts:** 2059

10+ years ago there were a few of us heavily into autocrossing DSMs regularly I being one of them and I was at one time owner and later driver of the rallycross DSM you refer I believe. For autocross, I would suggest trying to find a second gen DSM, they made big suspension/handling improvements with the second gen cars and the stock turbo is better suited to autocross power delivery, you also don't have to live with the horrible motorized seat belts in a second gen and they are better looking IMO. First gen cars are certainly acceptable especially if your running in SP/SM where you can fix some of the shortcomings, but a second gen DSM is a better starting point for an autocross car. In general though, DSMs are a bit clunky and numb, certainly capable cars in AWD form with big sticky tires.

JohnByers · **Posted:** Wed Jun 19, 2013 2:11 pm

My experience is limited to a former club member here (Tom Hoppe) first gen and my second gen GS-T. They certainly are fast cars. But I'm gonna give you one negative that bit my ass and got my wife one helluva ticket in Jacksonville because of it.

CRANKWALK

Run, do not walk away!

Les Davis · **Joined:** Fri Aug 29, 2003 2:04 pm **Posts:** 2059

JohnByers wrote:

My experience is limited to a former club member here (Tom Hoppe) first gen and my second gen GS-T. They certainly are fast cars. But I'm gonna give you one negative that bit my ass and got my wife one helluva ticket in Jacksonville because of it.

CRANKWALK

Run, do not walk away!

Another advantage of second gen DSMs, crank walk is less likely.

Vincent Keene · **Posted:** Wed Jun 19, 2013 2:51 pm

Chris Halweg wrote:

My extremely limited impression of BMW's is to stay away unless you want to be wrenching all of the time.

FTFY.

Karl Shultz · **Posted:** Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:00 pm

Bill Aycock wrote:

Is this just stupid?

Probably.

My opinion: if you're going to pour time, money, and emotion into an autocross car, before choosing the car, consider what the goal is.

1. Do you want to race against your friends? What do THEY drive?

2. What kind of class are you going to run in?

3. Do you care about being competitive, and "winning," or are you just out there to have a good time?

4. Or, do you really happen to like a certain model of car, and will race one of THOSE regardless of the above?

5. Do you enjoy working on cars, or think that you might?

Those are just off the top of my head.

My sense is that for you, a DSM might fall under number 4. Especially given the comment about having wanted one back in high school (I did too). I'd also suggest that with a $500 DSM, you'd probably better respond "YES" to number 5.

There are definitely easier paths to follow, depending on your budget. You can probably find a pretty decent early Miata for a few grand.

It's totally cool to buy and run a car because you just happen to LIKE that car, warts and all. If a Talon floats your boat, and you have the time, money, and willpower to keep one going, by all means, go for it. I won't lie to you, it wouldn't be my choice, but nearly everyone in the club now thinks my taste in cars is highly suspect.

Andrew Jonell · **Joined:** Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:43 pm **Posts:** 1350

Just another quick note, the number of DSM shops are quickly dwindling within the country. You might end up in a situation where parts and go-fast parts are extremely difficult to find.

JamesShort · **Posted:** Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:13 pm

If I were in your shoes and you wanted a second, semi-dedicated autox car, NA miata is the way to go. You can get them for sub $1500 and the parts are dirt cheap, they are easy to wrench on and reliable to boot. They are easy on tires and even on stock suspension is pretty fun to toss around. Plus if you blow an engine, James Milko will let you park it and do an engine swap in his garage

.

FWIW, my second car was a 91 Eagle Talon TSI and other than a notchy as f*ck 1->2 shift, the car was super reliable. I sold it to some ME majors at UNCC who, last I hear, were running 11s quarter miles in it on the stock bottom end.

Also (more rambling) not as many people have dedicated autox cars as you'd think. Most of those cars you see at our events are daily driven. Jeremy's car has 800 lb/in springs on it and DA konis and he daily drives it

.

jeremy gast · **Posted:** Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:47 pm

I took a beater Miata and turned it into a beater autox car. Truly for what you are wanting an STS Miata is gonna be hard to beat, maybe an STC civic.

If DSM warms your heart do it!

RodneyWright · **Posted:** Wed Jun 19, 2013 6:36 pm

oh, the money I've spent on car related sh!t and the cars themselves over the past 13 years, but it's been a fun 13 years! I have my dedicated autox car now, but I'm running it in stock class, so there's VERY little I can spend on it right now. It's also my daily driver. As soon as you start looking at STn or some of the other prepped classes and you want to follow the money burn path to get the car prepped to that class level, be prepared to open up the wallet. My mechanic told me once you can have a nice street car or you can have a nice autox car, but you can't have both. Very true words.

Bill, when I started, I was told seat time, seat time, seat time. But I chose not to listen, had to spend money to make the car faster. Wrong move. Spend money on, you guessed it, seat time. Go to other events and I even suggest an autox school. From there start looking at classes and decide what mods you're willing to make. This can get expensive quick if you do it wrong.

DickRasmussen · **Posted:** Wed Jun 19, 2013 6:42 pm

If you do the "beater" approach remember that unless you tow it needs to be reliable enough to get you to/from events that may be a couple of hours away from home. Ditto for low price tow vehicles. I started with the brand new daily driver approach (1974 Datsun 260Z that luckily was competitive at the time), moved to a dedicated but still street driven Lotus Europa that needed a BUNCH of work/$$$ before becoming competitive, toyed with a daily driver Mustang, and then bought a formula car that was initially towed with the Mustang. Lots of pluses/minuses with all three approaches.

steve remchak · **Posted:** Wed Jun 19, 2013 6:50 pm

Pick something that you can eventually turn in to a track rat. Trust me, eventually everyone here ends up at an HPDE. Not everyone keeps doing HPDEs but you might like it more than you expected. :wink:

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