Points #3 --NCCAR

shawnwhipple · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 6:28 pm **Posts:** 603

Had a great time on Sunday despite feeling frustrated at the end of the day. I hate those days when I don't go any faster all day. Luckily, my only clean run was also my fastest.

Thanks to all those who put in the hard work to make the event happen. I will say, I ended up liking the course more than I thought I would. It didn't drive as tight as it walked. I also liked the way the 2 turn arounds punished you when you dove into them to hard. That is really good course design when poor line selection costs you time without making you hit cones. Nicely done.

Nice driving Chuck :thumbsup:

Congrats on the FTPAX !

Keith Quistorff · **Posted:** Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:12 pm

Kudos, Chuck - great job! And you're still running those skinny tires on the rear?

Chuck Branscomb · **Posted:** Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:33 pm

Keith Quistorff wrote:

Kudos, Chuck - great job! And you're still running those skinny tires on the rear?

Thanks. Yep, 245/40-18 all around on stock width wheels (8.5F, 9.5R). The car is hooking up so well at times coming off elements, that I really don't think I want to run a stagger tire size. Maybe when the 275/35s come out and these wear out I should go that route all around? Opinions are literally all over the place on this subject of street tires vs constrained wheel widths (and I would assume the "best answer" is actually going to be highly dependent on the tire in question, i.e. sidewall stiffness and carcass design, so only some well done tests for a given tire design will be worthwhile).

One reason this thing is hooking up so hard off elements is the big front sway bar. It does want to understeer at steady state, mid-corner to corner exit, especially if you over-drive the entry. My first three runs yesterday I was staying too tight on the sweeper at the far end and burning away time on exit with understeer. On my fourth run I took a much wider line on entry, tried my best not to overdrive it and really, really late apex that last cone, etc... I felt it was slow while it was happening, (somehow did it similar two times in a row) and I ended up dropping a bunch of time. Oh, I also did the pivot cone much better on that run too.

This was really a fantastically laid out course with what appeared to be very low cone counts. It really drove well. The whole section from the start through to the slalom was designed very well and was a heck of a lot of fun. The challenging sweeper and pivot cone turns were make or break elements imo. I wish Junior Johnson was here for that course as I think I *might* be able to convince him that "tight isn't ALWAYS right" with that sweeper and my car (of course that would be followed by him driving it, running a tight line and beating my time I guess) -- just saying that since he and I had a huge discussion on that topic at an Evo Extreme school a few years ago, and I learned an enormous amount from him that day.

Here's my run 4 where I took that wide line, very late apex on the sweeper and getting well down into the 46s: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5VpjPytJis

Ryan Holton · **Posted:** Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:33 pm

Rodney Wright 2004 Mazda 3s 49.456
Ryan Holton 2002 Ford Focus SVT 50.152

Ahhhhemmm you would have tied Rob Keener down to the thousandth for 5th PAX if you would have ran STF.

Just sayin' :whoknows:

I want someone to run against!!!

Ryan Holton · **Posted:** Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:41 pm

Chuck Branscomb wrote:

Keith Quistorff wrote:

Kudos, Chuck - great job! And you're still running those skinny tires on the rear?

Thanks. Yep, 245/40-18 all around on stock width wheels (8.5F, 9.5R). The car is hooking up so well at times coming off elements, that I really don't think I want to run a stagger tire size. Maybe when the 275/35s come out and these wear out I should go that route all around? Opinions are literally all over the place on this subject of street tires vs constrained wheel widths (and I would assume the "best answer" is actually going to be highly dependent on the tire in question, i.e. sidewall stiffness and carcass design, so only some well done tests for a given tire design will be worthwhile).

One reason this thing is hooking up so hard off elements is the big front sway bar. It does want to understeer at steady state, mid-corner to corner exit, especially if you over-drive the entry. My first three runs yesterday I was staying too tight on the sweeper at the far end and burning away time on exit with understeer. On my fourth run I took a much wider line on entry, tried my best not to overdrive it and really, really late apex that last cone, etc... I felt it was slow while it was happening, (somehow did it similar two times in a row) and I ended up dropping a bunch of time. Oh, I also did the pivot cone much better on that run too.

This was really a fantastically laid out course with what appeared to be very low cone counts. It really drove well. The whole section from the start through to the slalom was designed very well and was a heck of a lot of fun. The challenging sweeper and pivot cone turns were make or break elements imo. I wish Junior Johnson was here for that course as I think I *might* be able to convince him that "tight isn't ALWAYS right" with that sweeper and my car (of course that would be followed by him driving it, running a tight line and beating my time I guess) -- just saying that since he and I had a huge discussion on that topic at an Evo Extreme school a few years ago, and I learned an enormous amount from him that day.

Here's my run 4 where I took that wide line, very late apex on the sweeper and getting well down into the 46s: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5VpjPytJis

LOVE, LOVE, LOVE that camera perspective!!! Was the camera mounted just behind the front door?

As for being tight on the far sweeper. My fastest run was the only run I ran wide down there

Chuck Branscomb · **Posted:** Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:56 pm

Ryan Holton wrote:

LOVE, LOVE, LOVE that camera perspective!!! Was the camera mounted just behind the front door?

As for being tight on the far sweeper. My fastest run was the only run I ran wide down there

It was mounted on the rear window which I had up just enough to allow the suction cup to fit on it. I try to angle it slightly toward the right too. It seems to be an easy place to mount the camera where you can see the course fairly well along with the steering inputs.

Rob Keehner · **Posted:** Mon Apr 15, 2013 5:24 pm

I liked the course, but going in the first run group hurt. Many of the drivers where driving right at the pivot cone for the turn around going back into the loop so the racing line wasn't cleaned off. On my fastest run I compensated braking a little earlier and driving a little closer but still washed a bit wide costing myself some time. It was clean by the second run group. I'm going to have to start bringing a leaf blower to clean the course or something.

Don't let Jeremy Ellison ride with you, I was slow when he went along.

The Corvette was tough at the Danville event. Had you asked does the car understeer or oversteer? I'd have simply said "yes". After getting a setup on it and fresh tires it was really fun, but now has understeer all the time. I figured out turning the traction control to 'off' instead of 'competition mode' is better. Comp mode which I mistakenly thought was the all the way off setting, isn't. It doesn't allow you to generate much yaw and the car is more pushy. With the car handling better I could really tell it was using the ABS to prevent wheelspin. So bottom line is this. Kevin Butler's Corvette has driving aids, do all you can to prevent yourself from getting driving aids.

Jordan Normark · **Posted:** Mon Apr 15, 2013 5:33 pm

Chuck, Junior is big on staying tight and I learned the value of that from him, but I had the same experience you did with that section. I suspect the staying tight rule applies to sweepers with more of a constant radius, constant speed line, where I think that sweeper had more of a crescent shaped line with a hook at the end, if that makes sense. That sweeper and the big old cone sweeper, which I thought a wider entry and slightly late apex was quicker, were the biggest challenges for me...that and taking advantage of the plentiful grip. In retrospect, I think the grip level in my car was greater than I expected because the surface is ultra smooth. The valving on my shocks make the ride harsh over anything but the smoothest surfaces.

Edit: I just watched your video and you were wide. Nice driving!

BriceJohnson · **Joined:** Thu Apr 13, 2006 7:33 am **Posts:** 2230

Anybody leave a small, blue and grey soft shell cooler? I have it.

Alec Moody · **Joined:** Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:02 am **Posts:** 299

Did anyone find a white magnetic 6? It flew off somewhere on one of my runs and I wasn't able to locate it. If it was thrown away, no biggie, I can make another one.

RodneyWright · **Posted:** Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:59 pm

Alec Moody wrote:

Did anyone find a white magnetic 6? It flew off somewhere on one of my runs and I wasn't able to locate it. If it was thrown away, no biggie, I can make another one.

I actually saw that laying off in the side of grass near the start on Sunday, but wasn't in a position to pick it up, sorry.... Maybe someone picked it up for you.

Chuck Branscomb · **Posted:** Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:06 pm

Jordan Normark wrote:

Chuck, Junior is big on staying tight and I learned the value of that from him, but I had the same experience you did with that section. I suspect the staying tight rule applies to sweepers with more of a constant radius, constant speed line, where I think that sweeper had more of a crescent shaped line with a hook at the end, if that makes sense. That sweeper and the big old cone sweeper, which I thought a wider entry and slightly late apex was quicker, were the biggest challenges for me...that and taking advantage of the plentiful grip. In retrospect, I think the grip level in my car was greater than I expected because the surface is ultra smooth. The valving on my shocks make the ride harsh over anything but the smoothest surfaces.

Edit: I just watched your video and you were wide. Nice driving!

I agree completely. I'm sure he'd be wide on entry to that element too due to the pinched exit if nothing else, but when you think about it, if the two pointer cones prior to the last ones were out on that wider line, I suppose the "tight is right" rule would be upheld.

Speaking of Junior, I took that school in the E39 M5, and he gets in the car and says something about how he loves autcrossing these big cars. After riding with me for a few runs on that figure 8 course they use (at Danville), we have this discussion about tight it right vs the more track-line line I was driving. He gets behind the wheel and holy crap did he teach me some nice lessons that day on driving big powerful cars and tight is right. Huge lessons...approximately 30 years after my first autocross. :oops:

RodneyWright · **Posted:** Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:07 pm

Ryan Holton wrote:

Rodney Wright 2004 Mazda 3s 49.456
Ryan Holton 2002 Ford Focus SVT 50.152

Ahhhhemmm you would have tied Rob Keener down to the thousandth for 5th PAX if you would have ran STF.

Just sayin' :whoknows:

I want someone to run against!!!

Damn you Ryan.... Now I'm actually thinking about this. I could use the lightweight wheels that I bought from Cash as my autox wheels now and get a tune for just a little more horse power.

Damn you Ryan....

Jordan Normark · **Posted:** Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:40 pm

Alec Moody wrote:

Did anyone find a white magnetic 6? It flew off somewhere on one of my runs and I wasn't able to locate it. If it was thrown away, no biggie, I can make another one.

Alec, Someone did find it. I remember seeing a long slinky looking 6 change hands by the trailer after the event. If I remember correctly Brice ended up with it.

Ryan Holton · **Posted:** Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:46 pm

Jordan Normark wrote:

Alec Moody wrote:

Did anyone find a white magnetic 6? It flew off somewhere on one of my runs and I wasn't able to locate it. If it was thrown away, no biggie, I can make another one.

Alec, Someone did find it. I remember seeing a long slinky looking 6 change hands by the trailer after the event. If I remember correctly Brice ended up with it.

Rob Keener had it at some point. It should be in the lost and found box in the trailer.

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Points #3 --NCCAR

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