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 Post subject: Re: Points #2
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:29 am 
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Kraig Klippel wrote:
As for the Rivals, they have a wider grip sweat spot that takes just a bit more time to get there, meaning less initial response than the Z2. This isn't a bad thing if you like this characteristic.


Given this was the first time I've autocrossed the M3 in addition to the Rival (and adding in that I was way undersized at 245/40-18s all around since the 275/295s won't be available until June), I was incredibly impressed with the Rival. I'm glad I talked with Kraig before my last run with his comments of "push them harder, they love slip angle" as I went out and dropped 8/10ths or so on that last run still leaving plenty of time on course. One of my problems with the M3 is that power-wise it makes me think of autocrossing the M5, and I was off the cones a good bit in many places (see, this is my excuse...that I was driving an E39 sized line with an E90 size car...handy one, isn't it? No need to think I was driving poorly, not turning early enough, too far off some cones, as I can come up with these handy excuses).

On the initial starting sweeper, for example, with each run I realized that I was being too damn conservative with the power. I short shifted 1st in order not to be heavily loaded up and needing a 1-2 shift mid-corner, and the Rivals would just keep delivering stick with each successive run using more and more throttle. If I had attacked that first turn with Kraig's advice, I don't know, they could have perhaps handled a bunch more power. They are easy to control at the limits, I was just too conservative perhaps not to explore such. The S65 builds power so linearly that it's really easy to control on course, so that was a learning curve too as I'm used to the M5's brute mid-range torque just waiting to haze the rear tires. I actually like the S65 power delivery more, and the top-end hit (not used much on course) from 6000-8400 is just insane.

My gut impression expressed when asked about Rivals at the end of the day was that "they are maybe the best tire I've ever driven on". Expanding on why I felt that way was I guess the superb communication from the contact patch of what's going on coupled with excellent controllability at the top of the tractive force/slip angle curve. It's rare to have a tire with so much grip but at the same time to *not* have a peaked tractive force curve, or at least not a severely peaked curve. I think BFG/Michelin has hit it out of the park with this tire, especially when you consider that they wear very well.

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 Post subject: Re: Points #2
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:02 am 
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Chuck, did you get any sense about sidewall stiffness, tire pressures etc.? People liken them to the RS3 (which need more pressure than Z1*) and Toyo R1Rs (which need less), so I'd be interested in some feedback on that.

Yeah....your car made a lot of people want E9x M3s :stick:

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 Post subject: Re: Points #2
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:17 am 
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I thought the turn-in was excellent, but that is probably as much newness to the car as the tire -- the normal 19" street tires I drive the M3 on are Conti DW, and so that's my only comparison on that car, and the Rivals feel incredible compared to those. It felt like the sidewalls were plenty stiff to me. Hard. Instant response. I settled on 38psi hot front, 37 rear by looking at wear at edges and the feel of the car. I truly have no clue what the "best" pressure range should be for this car (a bit over 3500lbs with 1/4 tank) plus I was running the 245s too...will be switching to either 245/275, 275/275 or 275/295 when the later ones are available. The net of it was that I was shocked at the turn-in response and stick of the car/tire combo. When James rode with me I think he felt the same thing, as I guess we both have a lot of E46 programming buried within.

Sorry, can't be of much help until I get more experience with both the car and the tires. I'm really looking forward to tire tests that surely must be in the making (although those are always taken with a grain of salt since changing the car (car, car setup, etc) can/will change the results). The only other high end street tire I've autocrossed recently is the Pilot Super Sport which is more of an all-around super tire, especially in the wet, etc, so it's not a fair comparison.

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 Post subject: Re: Points #2
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:26 am 
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When I rode along with Shawn (245/40/17 on a 7" wheel star spec) I could hear those tires crying in the sweepers and some hard transitions.

In Chuck's car with 245 rivals on 9.5" wheels A) the tires barely struggled in the sweepers and transitions B) held their own to that 400+ hp of the M3 C) seemed to feed back quite well (I felt that Chuck was already putting a bit of counter steer input before the car/tires indicated the rear was coming around though in the passenger seat, I might not have felt/heard what he did).

I do have to say, tires aside, I was blown away by how neutral the E9X M3 felt. I know it has the power to do some forced oversteer out of slow, pinched turns, but even in some transitions the car felt like it rotated pretty well even without a ton of throttle and it turned in very well.

My e46? Well right now it's not very sorted (225s in the front Pilot sports which I don't like and they are too skinny, 265 Conti DW in the rear which are brand new with tons of grip, not even max negative camber in the front which I'm fixing soon). Anyway, I did 4-5 runs at lunch time and I hate how that car autocrosses to the point of frustration. My Civic SI rotated and handled better. I really hope it's just the staggering of both tire size and compound and 0 camber in the rear which I'll be correcting soon. Even though it's infinitely across the spectrum from the S2000, I'd still like to have some fun on setup days or non points event in the BMW. Anyway, Chucks M3 suffered none of these gripes :).

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 Post subject: Re: Points #2
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:46 am 
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JamesShort wrote:
I felt that Chuck was already putting a bit of counter steer input before the car/tires indicated the rear was coming around though in the passenger seat, I might not have felt/heard what he did.


Awesome input. I'm going to ponder that some as I might be leading on steering inputs just prior to throttle application perhaps? Dunno. I have a lot of reprogramming to do with this car as 5 runs Sunday and 2 on Saturday are all I've got so far...

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 Post subject: Re: Points #2
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:18 pm 
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Chuck Branscomb wrote:
JamesShort wrote:
I felt that Chuck was already putting a bit of counter steer input before the car/tires indicated the rear was coming around though in the passenger seat, I might not have felt/heard what he did.


Awesome input. I'm going to ponder that some as I might be leading on steering inputs just prior to throttle application perhaps? Dunno. I have a lot of reprogramming to do with this car as 5 runs Sunday and 2 on Saturday are all I've got so far...

It's very likely due to the fact the M3 A) has faster turn in because of the Rivals and B) a faster steering rack than the ZHP (or maybe the M5 too)?

EDIT: Wait, what? The E9X M3 is only 3500 lbs? I would have thought 3750+

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 Post subject: Re: Points #2
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:36 pm 
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Yeah, that quoted weight of 3700ish from BMW is with a full tank and who knows what else. Seems to be extremely conservative as people have weighed the no sunroof sedans out in the low 35xx range. The net is that overall this thing seems to be about 100lbs more than the with sunroof E90 330i. The M3 has a lot of stuff to try too keep weight down like no insulation on the underside of the hood, front fenders are plastic, etc. Here is a quote from a guy who ran in A-stock last season in the midwest. This is with the same wheels I'm using but he had 295/30 and 315/30 A6s mounted. He has the "BMW Performance" exhaust too which I think saves about 20lbs.

Quote:
The car weighed 3522 with about 2-3 extra gallons of gas in it, but otherwise set up how I would compete in it with all trunk junk and spare change removed. I can autocross without any fuel starve until well below the 1/4 tank mark, the car was at about 3/8 tank. So figure conservatively there was 12 lbs of extra weight in it.


Here's his lengthy thread on the car: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=408290

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 Post subject: Re: Points #2
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 3:48 pm 
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Here's a FAQ Andy Hollis has on the latest hot street tires for 2013. Maybe we should start a Rival thread here on the board.

https://www.facebook.com/notes/hollis-racing/street-tire-faq-part-ii2013/409412972476008

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 Post subject: Re: Points #2
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 5:26 pm 
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JamesShort wrote:
Cash Davidson wrote:

I apparently over-achieved by spinning on my first AND second runs - and fourth. I'm gonna go back to a softer rear swaybar.
Like


Out with the 27mm rear bar. Here's my stock 19mm bar:

Image

I cut the ends off and welding new ends with slots so I can make it a bit stiffer:

Image

We'll see how it works at NCCAR. :thumbsup:

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