Street Tire Class 2013

Zach Hill · **Posted:** Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:54 am

Jordan Normark wrote:

Now, I would wager the difference between a good street tire (RS-3 or Star Specs) and Hoosier's is closer to the 1.5 to 1 second range.

Image the new Star Spec Z2's due out next year which boast a 1 second improvement over Z1's on a 60 second course. :shock:

Ryan Holton · **Posted:** Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:21 pm

Andrew Jonell wrote:

hasn't the A6 been the same compound for much longer than that?

The 6 in A6 is for the year of its release: 2006. It replaced the A3S05 (2005) which replaced the A3S04 (2004) and so on....

Apparently Hoosier must have got it right in 2006

RobLupella · **Posted:** Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:52 pm

Cash Davidson wrote:

I guess I agree most with Art - or maybe I just hate Pax - or maybe I just miss the old days when Stock classes were full and it felt like you were competing against similar cars. Like Matt said, back then there was such a big difference between R-comps and everything else, most people ran R-comps.

I would just add to the discussion, that if we change something it should be for a compelling reason. Let's not kid ourselves that any change in classes will attract more drivers. History has consistently shown that class changes, just shuffle the field. This years numbers at SCCA regionals & nationals saw pretty respectable numbers in the new RT* classes along with smaller numbers in stock classes. Overall, participation was the same or slightly less (from what I've read on SCCA boards).

As for me, I will likely use AutoX to test and tune the Mazda6 in hopes of running all of our track events (and maybe more). If time permits, I'll bring out the Bullitt and run in TIR or RTR or FS or whatever class will have me - I just wanna run and have fun.

I don't have a problem with the mandatory running of real street tires in "stock" class and I don't really have too much of a dog in the hunt

being that neither car I run is competitive in either of its classes since neither is fully prepped :cry:

but I agree that changing classes around just shuffles the same people. I agree with Art that while changing tires is a royal PITA, I love the feel of new R comps. I can't cord my Hankooks either but I think when they turn blue it means they have been fully heat cycled. LOL.

Big classes are great, I wish I could find one. CSP was for awhile and then folks disappeared.

RodneyWright · **Posted:** Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:47 pm

my only concern about running streets in stock class would be drivers from other clubs, not sure how they would react to our internal club ruling and we'd have to do some advertising to let other clubs know our intentions. I do agree w/ adjusting our TIR class to allow for RT SCCA paxing, but that may not go over well w/ everyone that subscribes to the "pax sucks" club.

shawnwhipple · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 6:28 pm **Posts:** 603

I just had a thought. I'm thankful for TIR class. If it wasn't for TIR class what would we discuss in the off season??

Steven Carter · **Posted:** Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:37 pm

Zach Hill wrote:

Jordan Normark wrote:

Now, I would wager the difference between a good street tire (RS-3 or Star Specs) and Hoosier's is closer to the 1.5 to 1 second range.

Image the new Star Spec Z2's due out next year which boast a 1 second improvement over Z1's on a 60 second course. :shock:

That's a bold claim (not by you, but your source)...IIRC, the GRM tire tests showed the Z1 et al to be about 1 sec slower than A6s, so that claim is saying they are equivalent to Rcomp grip? :shock:

I eagerly await the spring tire test GRM issue...

(now I have another excuse as to why I get beat by Zach so badly every time--it's the TIRES, dammit!)

jeremy gast · **Posted:** Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:15 pm

It is crazy how this sport revolves around tires. It doesnt matter what class or what car. Its the tires.

looking at buying some new st tires for the wifes miata for STR.

Zach Hill · **Posted:** Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:42 pm

Steven Carter wrote:

That's a bold claim (not by you, but your source)...IIRC, the GRM tire tests showed the Z1 et al to be about 1 sec slower than A6s, so that claim is saying they are equivalent to Rcomp grip? :shock:

I eagerly await the spring tire test GRM issue...

(now I have another excuse as to why I get beat by Zach so badly every time--it's the TIRES, dammit!)

Of course I can't find where I read that now... but here's Dunlop's Japanese site which claims the Z2 to be quicker than the Z1 on a 1.7 mile circuit: 1.7% quicker on the first lap, 1.3% quicker fastest lap of the first 5 laps, and 0.9% faster average lap out of 10 laps (assuming I am reading the translated Japanese correctly). They are, of course, decidedly biased, so take it with a grain of salt.
http://tire.dunlop.co.jp/tire/lineup/pa ... 2/lap.html

I thought I had seen an autocross-specific review, but can't seem to find it now.

Steven Carter · **Posted:** Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:50 pm

Zach Hill wrote:

Steven Carter wrote:

That's a bold claim (not by you, but your source)...IIRC, the GRM tire tests showed the Z1 et al to be about 1 sec slower than A6s, so that claim is saying they are equivalent to Rcomp grip? :shock:

I eagerly await the spring tire test GRM issue...

(now I have another excuse as to why I get beat by Zach so badly every time--it's the TIRES, dammit!)

Of course I can't find where I read that now... but here's Dunlop's Japanese site which claims the Z2 to be quicker than the Z1 on a 1.7 mile circuit: 1.7% quicker on the first lap, 1.3% quicker fastest lap of the first 5 laps, and 0.9% faster average lap out of 10 laps (assuming I am reading the translated Japanese correctly). They are, of course, decidedly biased, so take it with a grain of salt.
http://tire.dunlop.co.jp/tire/lineup/pa ... 2/lap.html

I thought I had seen an autocross-specific review, but can't seem to find it now.

No worries. If we're gonna bench race tires, I think they will be about 0.25 secs or so faster in the dry than the Z1s, but worse in the wet. The tread design (from what I've seen) has substantially larger tread blocks and smaller void areas which likely enhances dry grip at the expense of wet performance.

Chuck Branscomb · **Posted:** Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:19 pm

Steven Carter wrote:

Zach Hill wrote:

Jordan Normark wrote:

Now, I would wager the difference between a good street tire (RS-3 or Star Specs) and Hoosier's is closer to the 1.5 to 1 second range.

Image the new Star Spec Z2's due out next year which boast a 1 second improvement over Z1's on a 60 second course. :shock:

That's a bold claim (not by you, but your source)...IIRC, the GRM tire tests showed the Z1 et al to be about 1 sec slower than A6s, so that claim is saying they are equivalent to Rcomp grip? :shock:

I eagerly await the spring tire test GRM issue...

(now I have another excuse as to why I get beat by Zach so badly every time--it's the TIRES, dammit!)

The C&D / Tirerack test this past summer yielded some interesting results for the dry autocross:

Hankook RS3 60.3 sec
Star Spec 60.2 sec
Pilot Super Sport 59.9 sec
AD-08 59.7 sec

I can attest to the Pilot Super Sport being an outstanding tire, and especially in cool weather. From what we have been able to tell on Jackie's E46, switching from the Star Spec to the Super Sports definitely did not lose anything (other than noise and harshness where the PSS is much better than the Star Spec) -- they appear to be every bit as competitive as the Star Spec (more so if the C&D/TR tests are accurate).

Ryan Holton wrote:

Andrew Jonell wrote:

hasn't the A6 been the same compound for much longer than that?

The 6 in A6 is for the year of its release: 2006. It replaced the A3S05 (2005) which replaced the A3S04 (2004) and so on....

Apparently Hoosier must have got it right in 2006

I would wager that they did not see any business case to change the A6. There a lot of things they didn't get right with that tire like the edge of death wear between the tread face and sidewall. If they are at/near the top in R-comp performance, nothing other than the V710 (in some sizes) nipping at their heals, why expend more funds into a declining volume market? (i.e. stock class competition is dwindling rapidly from what I can tell). Hence I wouldn't expect Hoosier to release any new tire unless they can do so with some new design that equals/improves on A6 grip/wear but lowers their manufacturing costs at the same time.

Zach Hill · **Posted:** Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:22 pm

Chuck Branscomb wrote:

Hankook RS3 60.3 sec
Star Spec 60.2 sec

SEE!!! I knew the Z1's were better!!! :lol:

Arthur McDonald · **Joined:** Fri Aug 29, 2003 1:54 am **Posts:** 2052

So..... The August Fastrack has this beauty:

"Road Tire
1. Effective 1/1/2013, after consideration of the member input the SEB has amended the specifications for the Road Tire
supplemental classes such that the minimum treadwear rating is 180, (7918,7945, 7953, 7986, 7995, 8004, 8014, 8020,
8026, 8030, 8032, 8051, 8083, 8100, 8115, 8214, 8283). The SEB believes that a higher treadwear rating for RT than for
ST is consistent with the differences in levels of preparation."

So that eliminates the RS-3, though the Pilot Super Sport, AD08 and presumably the new Z2 are still OK.

RobLupella · **Posted:** Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:10 pm

shawnwhipple wrote:

I just had a thought. I'm thankful for TIR class. If it wasn't for TIR class what would we discuss in the off season??

The fact that PAX sucks

DickRasmussen · **Posted:** Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:48 pm

Arthur McDonald wrote:

So..... The August Fastrack has this beauty:

"Road Tire
1. Effective 1/1/2013, after consideration of the member input the SEB has amended the specifications for the Road Tire
supplemental classes such that the minimum treadwear rating is 180, (7918,7945, 7953, 7986, 7995, 8004, 8014, 8020,
8026, 8030, 8032, 8051, 8083, 8100, 8115, 8214, 8283). The SEB believes that a higher treadwear rating for RT than for
ST is consistent with the differences in levels of preparation."

So that eliminates the RS-3, though the Pilot Super Sport, AD08 and presumably the new Z2 are still OK.

But the November Fastrack has this one:

ROAD TIRE
The SEB has decided, after considering member input, to retract the change which increased the Road Tire minimum required treadwear rating from 140. This will be reflected in the Supplemental Regulations for future National Tour events.
The SEB has also decided that for the Road Tire classes the following tire will be on the Exclusion List, effective 1/1/2013:
Toyo Proxes R1R 195/50-15 size only

Steven Carter · **Posted:** Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:34 pm

I'll lay down a small wager that RS3 will have a compliant TW rating next year.

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