Street Tire Class 2013

Scott Johnson · **Posted:** Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:40 pm

We can't be the only club using AXWare that is running into this. Has anyone sent a request for an update (assuming we are getting regular updates). Plenty of clubs have "Pro" classes, and plenty of clubs actually support the RT classes, so it goes to figure that stacking index classes is a common request (Pro-RTR). As we saw this past weekend, our "different" way of doing things just screws up the system when folks from other clubs want to come and play with us (the X Pro CSP Miata comes to mind).

JamesShort · **Posted:** Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:11 pm

Scott Johnson wrote:

We can't be the only club using AXWare that is running into this. Has anyone sent a request for an update (assuming we are getting regular updates). Plenty of clubs have "Pro" classes, and plenty of clubs actually support the RT classes, so it goes to figure that stacking index classes is a common request (Pro-RTR). As we saw this past weekend, our "different" way of doing things just screws up the system when folks from other clubs want to come and play with us (the X Pro CSP Miata comes to mind).

The solution is that we'd create RTSS, RTAS, RTBS....RTSSP, RTASP, RTBSP etc as classes that have a premodified pax associated with them. Then you can run those classes in whatever category (NOV, TIR, X) and we'd be fine.

It's not impossible, just not investigated.

FWIW, there are no decisions about RT at this point. The new officers are meeting in early January and a decision will be made then.

JohnByers · **Posted:** Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:33 pm

Come on and play in RT guys, NCR definately is and I am heading down that path with the quickness!

Zach Hill · **Posted:** Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:44 pm

Scott Johnson wrote:

We can't be the only club using AXWare that is running into this. Has anyone sent a request for an update (assuming we are getting regular updates). Plenty of clubs have "Pro" classes, and plenty of clubs actually support the RT classes, so it goes to figure that stacking index classes is a common request (Pro-RTR). As we saw this past weekend, our "different" way of doing things just screws up the system when folks from other clubs want to come and play with us (the X Pro CSP Miata comes to mind).

The problem comes when stacking MULTIPLE class categories together. AFAIK, no other clubs do this. Not sure what you mean by our "different" way; Triad runs the exact same classes as we do, except they call their expert class "Pro" and we call ours "X." As James said, we're not sure what we're going to do with RT/TIR next year. The idea we've been kicking around would be to basically continue using a single TIR class but apply the pax break that SCCA uses from their RT classes. We've never allowed X+TIR before, so we wouldn't do that in the future. Or NOV+TIR, or OF+TIR, etc.

I'm not aware of the issue at the last event. XCSP should be a normal class. What was the problem?

Aaron Buckley · **Posted:** Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:01 pm

Scott Johnson wrote:

We can't be the only club using AXWare that is running into this. Has anyone sent a request for an update (assuming we are getting regular updates). Plenty of clubs have "Pro" classes, and plenty of clubs actually support the RT classes, so it goes to figure that stacking index classes is a common request (Pro-RTR). As we saw this past weekend, our "different" way of doing things just screws up the system when folks from other clubs want to come and play with us (the X Pro CSP Miata comes to mind).

Scott, I've been in timing and scoring for the SCCA National events for a long time now. With RTA, RTR and RTF they had to do manual adjustments for PAX. Not too many software setups, AXWare included have made adjustments for that... yet. Remember, RT* is less than a year old at this point and still a provisional class, thus making adjustments for it without National status might be jumping the shark from a software programming perspective.

- AB

shawnwhipple · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 6:28 pm **Posts:** 603

I'm really torn on which way to go next year. On one hand it looks like there will be some good competition in C-stock and I'd love to drive on R-comps. On the other hand running TIR or whatever class the club decides on would make life a lot easier/cheaper. If the RT modifier is added to TIR class then you could be competitive on the PAX list. I've decided to wait and see what the officers come up with in their meeting before I buy any tires.

I'd really like to see Tarheel pick up the SCCA RT classes but the trend seems to be against this. It's been argued that this would break up our biggest class but I think TIR is almost too big sometimes. I think at most events this past year TIR has been bigger than all of the stock classes combined, and when you look at folks in Stock classes I'd guess 50% are not even running R-comps. I also believe the number of folks wanting to run RT or TIR will continue to increase since the price of R-comps and their general inconvienience will make more people look for cheaper and easier ways to compete.

My crazy alternative idea would be for THSCC to Ban R-comps in stock class. This would give the stock classes back to TIR folks. We could then create a PAX class called Stock sticky to give those with R-comps a place to play. Some of the advantages I see to this are.
1. You could apply the 0.980 road tire modifier to PAX numbers for the stock classes before hand. For example CS PAX is normally 0.834 we would multipy that by 0.980 and get 0.817. The effect is the same but avoids stacking PAX factors.
2. You could use straight PAX for the new sticky tire class.
3. This aligns our classing structure to what people are actually doing.

I believe this classing structure would be a way for the club to draw more entrants since we could advertise the fact that you can run an open class (for those who think PAX sucks) with Tarheel and not have to buy R-comps.

Discuss and flame. :lol:

Ryan Holton · **Posted:** Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:26 pm

shawnwhipple wrote:

I'm really torn on which way to go next year. On one hand it looks like there will be some good competition in C-stock and I'd love to drive on R-comps. On the other hand running TIR or whatever class the club decides on would make life a lot easier/cheaper. If the RT modifier is added to TIR class then you could be competitive on the PAX list. I've decided to wait and see what the officers come up with in their meeting before I buy any tires.

I'd really like to see Tarheel pick up the SCCA RT classes but the trend seems to be against this. It's been argued that this would break up our biggest class but I think TIR is almost too big sometimes. I think at most events this past year TIR has been bigger than all of the stock classes combined, and when you look at folks in Stock classes I'd guess 50% are not even running R-comps. I also believe the number of folks wanting to run RT or TIR will continue to increase since the price of R-comps and their general inconvienience will make more people look for cheaper and easier ways to compete.

My crazy alternative idea would be for THSCC to Ban R-comps in stock class. This would give the stock classes back to TIR folks. We could then create a PAX class called Stock sticky to give those with R-comps a place to play. Some of the advantages I see to this are.
1. You could apply the 0.980 road tire modifier to PAX numbers for the stock classes before hand. For example CS PAX is normally 0.834 we would multipy that by 0.980 and get 0.817. The effect is the same but avoids stacking PAX factors.
2. You could use straight PAX for the new sticky tire class.
3. This aligns our classing structure to what people are actually doing.

I believe this classing structure would be a way for the club to draw more entrants since we could advertise the fact that you can run an open class (for those who think PAX sucks) with Tarheel and not have to buy R-comps.

Discuss and flame. :lol:

Scott Johnson · **Posted:** Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:49 pm

Zach Hill wrote:

I'm not aware of the issue at the last event. XCSP should be a normal class. What was the problem?

In that case, the car had a teeny tiny X in blue tape, it had a big CSP and big numbers, but those were barely xed out, really they were really using the teeny numbers that were totally different. There might have also been a Pro magnet on the car.

The local SCCA clubs are running RT classes (CCR and NCR).

JamesShort · **Posted:** Wed Dec 12, 2012 11:52 pm

We are listening, the point is that THSCC is fragile in the sense that we are not attracting the 100-150 entrants an event. If our strongest class which includes lots of *SP cars, is to be dissolved into RTA, RTR, RTF, then I think we'd lose a larger number of folks than we'd gain in the few of you in favor of RT*.

That being said, I have 'faith' that the SEB will eventually make stock class a street tire only class in the next 5+ years and when the times comes and the pax is figured out based on street tires, then we will move to that and deprecate TIR/RT* etc. It's unfortunately a matter of time given that car nerds are a waning demographic and more financially conservative automobile enthusiasts are going to become the norm.

BriceJohnson · **Joined:** Thu Apr 13, 2006 7:33 am **Posts:** 2230

Get some R comps and come play against mike miller in C-stock.

Count me as the luncatic fringe that still enjoys r comps. I'm new to the purple crack, and still hooked. Super stoked about battling Matt and my wife in a legit D0-stock battle next year.

Patrice Bousquet · **Posted:** Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:34 am

I'm hopping to do more AX next year with Olivier. It will definitively be with street tire, as to which class we will see what that debate come up to.
The Miata will be setup for track duty for Olivier and me. The Porsche will get a break.

Ryan Holton · **Posted:** Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:01 am

BriceJohnson wrote:

Count me as the luncatic fringe that still enjoys r comps.

Ohhh, there is not much better than the first few runs on fresh tires. Its almost like you feel you can tell physics to piss off. Its paying the tire bills that's the problem.

jeremy gast · **Posted:** Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:41 am

AMEN, used tires in csp for me this year.

Ryan Holton wrote:

BriceJohnson wrote:

Count me as the luncatic fringe that still enjoys r comps.

Ohhh, there is not much better than the first few runs on fresh tires. Its almost like you feel you can tell physics to piss off. Its paying the tire bills that's the problem.

RobLupella · **Posted:** Thu Dec 13, 2012 1:40 pm

I am with Brice in that I like running on r-comps. Why ban them in a class that is meant for them? Yes they are more expensive, but instead of banning them for everyone because some don't want the expense, just run a "TIR" class of some kind for those who want to run on street tires. That is what those classes were meant for.

I'm not flaming you Shawn, you have a right to express your thoughts. While I don't agree I will defend your right to say it. :lol:

Keith Quistorff · **Posted:** Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:02 pm

Ryan Holton wrote:

Ohhh, there is not much better than the first few runs on fresh tires. Its almost like you feel you can tell physics to piss off. Its paying the tire bills that's the problem.

Amen, brother! Last new set of A6's I purchased by choice lasted 21 autocross runs, and I didn't use them for anything else. At $1200/set, or $57 per run, that's too rich for my blood. Thankfully, at least Hoosier was gracious in replacing them for a very reduced price.

(And no, they weren't underinflated, etc. - they were on a McStrut car, however, but with a massive front sway bar and rotated front to rear every event - wore out on the outside edge, but the wear was fairly even across the surface.)

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