Vincent Keene wrote:
steve remchak wrote:
Let's face it, most HPDE instructors will tell you that autoX breeds way too quick inputs and while this might be a stereotype it is still a commonly held belief.
True, but autocross also teaches car control, threshold braking, and looking ahead. In my experience the "fast hands" takes less than a session or two to "fix". IOW, it's easier to fix fast hands than it is to teach the other positive attributes.
Exactly. The more experienced the autocrosser, the better at it the person was, the safer I always felt in the right seat at the track. As an instructor, I took it as my job to level set a student, know ahead of time based on their background what likely issues could arise and plan for them upfront, etc. Imagine getting two pure novices at track events -- one has zero experience except street driving while the other has been to two Evo schools and regularly gets top times at autox events. I'll take the second one any day.
I agree with Jason and some others that autox and track are not tied together as a step up/step down thing. Having started track events in 1981 and autox in 1976, I've seen all types of characters, drivers, fresh students, etc. One of the almost assured problem drivers at an HPDE event is the guy who has always done HPDE, perhaps is now an instructor, has an ego bigger than Texas and believes autox is a worthless waste of time for those little folk who can't drive at the track. Typically said person ends up wrapping up his car sooner or later, oftentimes on the first instructor session of the day in a winter event while displaying his total lack of knowledge of the glass transition temperature of the rubber his Hoosiers are made out of.
Laughs all around by fellow instructors soon follow along with the chief instructor scolding the novices in their driver's meeting to take it easy out there today and learn from this "instructor's" mistake. Said instructor of course blames the "slick" pavement and not himself since of course it is the conditions that are at fault.
I've worked with numerous HPDE fanatics at an autox who can't handle car control, the speed of processing and looking ahead needed, etc, and give up after trying it once or twice. Since they can't do it well, surely it's the sport that is the problem, naturally.
The car control issue is one of the "problems" with HPDE training imo. Some clubs have tried to rectify that in recent years (the one that comes most to mind is the National Capital Chapter of the BMWCCA that uses the monster triple skidpad at Summit Point now to teach car control at HPDEs), but historically, one could "rise" through the ranks at HPDE and even been instructing for many years without ever having much experience beyond the limits, recovery, keeping the vision down the path you want to go not where the car is headed, etc. Rightly so, they've not had the opportunity to practice those skills hardly at all. Autoxers on the other hand get continual, every event, experience with the fine aspects of beyond the limit car control -- the clock doesn't lie, so dialing in a bit too much lock while understeering or drifting the tail wide too much gives you instant feedback on what's not the fastest method(s) while also giving you the opportunity to improve during the next run. In the HPDE environment we would eject people for driving like they would at an autox (and rightly so for their and other's safety and the integrity of the event) -- meaning driving just over the limits on every turn on course, sometimes going off, etc. So clearly traditional HPDEs are not sources for that type of training...
Anyway, it's unfortunate that (from what I've seen over 30+ years at events) we can't merge these two sports closer together somehow. Perhaps in some arcane fashion that is what chump car/Lemons is almost doing.
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