THSCC Forums

Oh, it was fun competition, don't get me wrong. I just don't think that the car is all that competitive. Its a D-stock car really, the R56 cooper S is a faster car than the '06 JCW for autocross (owing to its ability to get more camber) yet the D-stock winner at nationals gave up almost 3 seconds each day to the C-stock NC miata.

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2012 MX-5 Sport SUV

I've been in contact with the D stock winner this year. His 07 MCS with LSD, suspension package and no Premium or Cold Weather (ie no heated seats, boy racer headlights, sun/moonroof) weighed in at 2480 lbs with 16x6.5 with 205/45/16 A6s. That's a lot lighter than most places quote...13.7 lb/hp.

In stock class, if you retrofit a stock package, you have to do the 'whole' package, but in the case of the suspension package on the MCS, it is springs, arbs (f/r) and dampers. Well turns out dampers and front bar are allowable mods in stock, so I guess to be compliant, all you have to do is swap the rear bar and the springs.

Anyway, John is on the stock 'sports' front bar and koni yellows, max front camber, about even rear and zero toe all the way around. Pretty easy/cheap setup compared to the WRX . He said he got 80 runs out of his last set of A6s and they had long heat cycled out before they corded.

Damn, I don't know what I want to do now .

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2011/2012 Autox VP
2013/2014.5 President
2013 Top Gun

2015 Fit

22R-EC => 4G63 => D16Y7 + D16Y8 => EJ255 + K24Z2 => K20Z3 + K24Z2 => K24Z2 + M54 => L15B

I never even thought about changing front bars on my R53. Would you go bigger or smaller? Seriously this is all you need:

1. Konis—spring for DA on the rears if you want, I know a guy that has a set.
2. Wheels
3. R-Comps (pick your flavor)
4. An alignment to max out front camber. Maybe a tick of toe out.

I didn't do any of that until after my first year autocrossing mine.

As far as which car is faster between the R53 or R56 (or the Type R even) I think it ends up being course dependent. The R56 is softer than the previous gen.

For local stuff here and other long transition-ey courses the R53 is a tough car to beat. If you can stay ahead of it, an R53 with slalom as fast as you can smoothly put in the steering. Once you get into tighter courses with lots of digging out of slow corners the R56 can put it's torque into play.

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Not spectacular just decent.
I'm not sure what I'm driving.
Maybe an ITR in DS.
Or half-assed STX prepped 330.

I only mention the front bar because my assumption that finding a no sun roof MCS with lsd AND sports suspension might not be easy, so incase I had to do a sports suspenion and/or LSD retrofit, I'd have to drop the whole front subframe to do the front bar, and then I mind as well pull the tranny while it's down to do the factory lsd.

Ideally, I'd find the exact car/options I want, but who knows, I might want a different car next week .

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2011/2012 Autox VP
2013/2014.5 President
2013 Top Gun

2015 Fit

22R-EC => 4G63 => D16Y7 + D16Y8 => EJ255 + K24Z2 => K20Z3 + K24Z2 => K24Z2 + M54 => L15B

But I'm only decent. He's likely spectacular.

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Not spectacular just decent.
I'm not sure what I'm driving.
Maybe an ITR in DS.
Or half-assed STX prepped 330.

You don't give yourself enough credit. I like to think of you as "spectacularly decent."


--Donnie

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My Blog

James, don't get hung up on dropping the sub frame on a FWD to put in a FSB. On the Celica and other cars that required this, it took me about 30 minutes once I understood what I needed to do. It's not like you will do it all the time, the big thing is that you need to do the alignment afterwards.

As for the bigger FSB vs. smaller on a FWD car, to me it all depends on the car and it's ability to transition. If it transitions well, but doesn't put down power well, I would consider a smaller adjustable bar (that you could make as stiff as stock if needed for concrete). If the car doesn't transition well, I would go with a bigger FSB until wheelspin off corner or over understeering in steady state is a problem. For the Mini, I would try a bigger bar, because there are a ton of off the shelf options, so it would be cheap to experiment. I think that a smaller bar might be the trick, which would require a call to a place like Saner.

On the Celica there is a 15/16" FSB stock and I had Saner make a 5/8" bar for the Celica for ST, for I couldn't get away with no bar due to torque steer, but the stock was too stiff. I think it would have been very interesting on a stock Celica GT/S back then (2004). Now that the 275/35/15 exists, I would probably look at an 1 1/8" bar for the Celica in stock, for I am betting it will put down power better than it did prior.

All of this needs to be factored in with alignment. I have become a guy that thinks that on about any car, a BIG FSB with a wacky rear alignment to make the car rotate will be optimal for my style.

Many time National Champion (SS, AS, BS, CS) Matthew Braun puts the biggest bar on the car that gives mild steady state push and then tweaks the alignment to his liking and calls it good. - AB

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'14 Toyota Sequoia Platinum 4WD
Super Westerfield Bros - '93 Integra - LeChump Du Jour
STX 93 - Scion FR-S

I came to a similar conclusion with my car. Setting that thing up is defined by striking a balance between lightning fast transitioning and steady state manageability.

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Karl S.
2014 Baby, 2014 House, 2013 Ford Focus ST, 2013 BMW 328i, 1994 Mercedes E320
(Insert passive aggressive signature line here)

Thanks Aaron. I'm not too worried about the subframe thing. If I can't find one with the LSD and sports package, I'd need to drop the whole thing to pull the transmission anyway. But John Ma is running the stock non sport front bar and the 'sport package' rear bar. I guess since he runs no toe in the rear, that it'd be pushy in steady state with a bigger front bar. But depending on how easy it is to do the rear toe, I'd probably prefer a nice big front bar and do some toe out in the rear to help it rotate.

But yes an adjustable front would be nice for tuning and not having to drop the subframe to do a swap .

_________________
2011/2012 Autox VP
2013/2014.5 President
2013 Top Gun

2015 Fit

22R-EC => 4G63 => D16Y7 + D16Y8 => EJ255 + K24Z2 => K20Z3 + K24Z2 => K24Z2 + M54 => L15B

Interesting that this approach still works. I used it in 1977 on my DS Datsun 260Z. Sure helped transitions and corner exit both in testing and in competition. The Z was only adjustable for front toe, nothing else. I think Stano does this in FS.

Dick

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Dick Rasmussen

FS 50 2018 Mustang GT

James,

Sorry for coming into this late, but I've read over the thread, and I'm just curious where the LSD option (?) enters the equation. If I do a build on a new Mini, the sport package doesn't show an LSD for example. On used cars, how to know if it has an LSD without checking? Heck, if you have a link to all this stuff, just point me to it, a forum FAQ, etc...

You've got me curious about a Mini...

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Current stable:
2019 BMW M2 Competition slicktop 6MT
2011 BMW M3 sedan slicktop 6MT
2007 BMW 328i wagon (slushbox for now)
1975 CanAm 125MX2

I read the LSD went out of production in March, but that some lots may still have some cars that haven't been sold. Otherwise its just the EDLC.

I think to really prove a difference one would have to do a track test with identical cars other that the LSD/EDLC and see the numbers. Yes, everyone *says* a mechanical LSD is better, but until you've tested, you don't really know.

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"Build a man a fire and he'll stay warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he'll stay warm the rest of his life."
'93 Subaru Legacy DIRTBOMB
'98 BMW M3
2013 Rallyx Co-VP

A British car show did a test of the Scirocco and the 2011 JCW (no LSD option either) and they say the E-LSD is awful.

The way I see is is a mechanical LSD and a E-LSD does the same thing: allows you to maintain a desired race line while exiting a turn on throttle. However, they do so in much different ways. A true mechanical LSD does so by allowing you to speed up while doing so....an E-LSD does so by slowing you down while doing so. I think the choice is obvious .

Chuck,

Early model year 2010 MCS had the mechanical (torque sensing style) LSD as an option. So even if you have a later 2010 MCS where there was no option to get it, you could still have the OE LSD installed and be stock legal. But yes, if you try to build a 2011, the sports suspension package doesn't have LSD (it never did) as the LSD was it's separate line item. Some people in the Mini forums say the cold weather package has it (in BMW like fashion) but that was never the case, you had to pick it as it's own option (which is nice for stock class autox retrofits).

I'm sure if you had a VIN, you could contact Mini and they could see if it has an LSD installed on the car or not.

_________________
2011/2012 Autox VP
2013/2014.5 President
2013 Top Gun

2015 Fit

22R-EC => 4G63 => D16Y7 + D16Y8 => EJ255 + K24Z2 => K20Z3 + K24Z2 => K24Z2 + M54 => L15B

When the Cayman S, 135i, 335i and other production cars that the electronic "LSD" is holding the car back, then if Porsche & BMW isn't getting it right, I have a funny feeling Mini isn't out engineering them, considering they are owned by BMW. - AB

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'14 Toyota Sequoia Platinum 4WD
Super Westerfield Bros - '93 Integra - LeChump Du Jour
STX 93 - Scion FR-S

If you mean yourself, it's a major pain.

My plan is to learn to drive better next year, be more patient (i. e. quit drifting), and enjoy my toasty warm backside while the stars zip overhead