2011 PAX/RTP released

Donnie Barnes · **Posted:** Sat Nov 20, 2010 3:25 pm

Toyota never really thought anyone would have serious grip in a Celica. :lol:

--Donnie

Chuck Branscomb · **Posted:** Sat Nov 20, 2010 3:34 pm

Aaron Buckley wrote:

Donnie Barnes wrote:

But it's just bodywork, right? Why can't you just repair it?

--Donnie

I don't know. Everyone acts as if it's a tough repair. I need to do a little reading on it.

Isn't it carbon fiber? Perhaps this is a different part, but I remember some guy getting his Elise totaled in a parking deck when a Suburban hit him in the A-pillar area at 5mph (or something like that).

Chuck Branscomb · **Posted:** Sat Nov 20, 2010 3:45 pm

Aaron Buckley wrote:

This the reason why I won't get a C6Z06:

Jeremy Foley's C6Z06

Quote:

In November of 2009 the car suffered a catastrophic engine failure. At roughly 31,xxx miles. The engine was replaced under the warranty.

Wow. Ed Holloway's 2008 Z06 suffered a catastrophic failure too (at VIR), and he had very low miles on it at the time (5k maybe?). Chevy told him if there was any ECU tune, no warranty, but his car was totally stock. They took the car back to Bowling Green for evaluation and a new engine. Ed sold the car as soon as it was back.

Aaron Buckley · **Posted:** Sat Nov 20, 2010 3:52 pm

Donnie Barnes wrote:

Toyota never really thought anyone would have serious grip in a Celica. :lol:

--Donnie

Yeah... and I was on Kumho MX's

- AB

Donnie Barnes · **Posted:** Sat Nov 20, 2010 3:53 pm

Chuck Branscomb wrote:

Isn't it carbon fiber? Perhaps this is a different part, but I remember some guy getting his Elise totaled in a parking deck when a Suburban hit him in the A-pillar area at 5mph (or something like that).

Nah, fiberglass. There's a complete aftermarket body kit for the Elise that's CF, though. I think per pound saved, it's quite the expensive mod.

--Donnie

Aaron Buckley · **Posted:** Sat Nov 20, 2010 3:56 pm

Chuck Branscomb wrote:

Isn't it carbon fiber? Perhaps this is a different part, but I remember some guy getting his Elise totaled in a parking deck when a Suburban hit him in the A-pillar area at 5mph (or something like that).

Here's a picture of the damage on Ryan's car:

Looks like fiberglass to me. - AB

Chuck Branscomb · **Posted:** Sat Nov 20, 2010 3:57 pm

Donnie Barnes wrote:

I don't care for any of those SS cars, personally. The 996GT3 would be my choice is I had to pick one, but honestly if I didn't care about Nationals I'd probably get the E90 M3 for the reasons you mentioned. But that's just me. Mullet types should go for the Z06. Buckley is going to get an Elise, apparently.

I just sort of hate the 996 front end is why I'm not bigger on *that* car. Those headlights suck to me, and hell, I owned a 996TT for a couple years. The 997 just killed the 996 for me.

--Donnie

Yep, the 997 is much nicer looking. I forgot to mention that I've had maybe 1/2 hour of seat time in Ed Holloway's 996 GT3 on the street. The GT3 is a heck of a lot of fun to drive, but I can see how it would get tiring very quickly if you were using it for anything other than a short trip on decent roads -- very loud, stiff, brutal over rough pavement, etc. I've pretty much ruled out that car although it would be cheaper than a 2011 E90 M3 (would probably do European delivery though), and it would hold its value better from this point onward.

Sigh...it's possible that buying a GT3 for ~50k, owning it for 4-5 years or so, not putting many miles on it, etc, that the actual cost of ownership wouldn't be bad unless of course you have to replace the LSD, an alternator, etc, at typical Porsche prices. The new E90 M3 on the other hand would have full warranty and "maintenance" for 4 yr/50k miles only costing extra oil changes I'd do myself.

Steven Carter · **Posted:** Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:58 pm

Aaron Buckley wrote:

Chuck Branscomb wrote:

Isn't it carbon fiber? Perhaps this is a different part, but I remember some guy getting his Elise totaled in a parking deck when a Suburban hit him in the A-pillar area at 5mph (or something like that).

Looks like fiberglass to me. - AB

Careful with clam damage. The body is bonded to a 200-lb aluminum chassis, and significant damage (like a 5mph lovetap from an SUV) will get it totaled, as mentioned above. In some cases the damage can seem minor but violate the integrity of the chassis, making it unsafe for use. Lotustalk is littered with threads about that situation, as well as the "Check this VIN" threads for people looking at potential purchases. Sometimes clam/chassis damage doesn't show up on Carfax, as someone will just elect to pay for the repair. Best choice is to have a qualified Lotus dealer/mechanic inspect it prior to purchase. Given how many Elises are available for sale, any car with clam damage should be passed over, but that's just me.

Donnie Barnes · **Posted:** Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:07 pm

Steven Carter wrote:

Careful with clam damage. The body is bonded to a 200-lb aluminum chassis, and significant damage (like a 5mph lovetap from an SUV) will get it totaled, as mentioned above. In some cases the damage can seem minor but violate the integrity of the chassis, making it unsafe for use. Lotustalk is littered with threads about that situation, as well as the "Check this VIN" threads for people looking at potential purchases. Sometimes clam/chassis damage doesn't show up on Carfax, as someone will just elect to pay for the repair. Best choice is to have a qualified Lotus dealer/mechanic inspect it prior to purchase. Given how many Elises are available for sale, any car with clam damage should be passed over, but that's just me.

I'm confused. If the body is bonded to the chassis, how is it possible for there to be aftermarket clams available?

And it would appear the cracks in question are from hitting cones. And Aaron intends to hit a few cones with his. So even finding an uncracked one isn't likely to help since he's gonna do it anyway, right? Or is there any chance that repairing it might make it stronger? I really don't know, just throwing that out there.

Steven Carter · **Posted:** Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:39 pm

sorry--I wasn't clear earlier. Clam damage can be a "tip of the iceberg" that indicates chassis damage underneath, where most, if not all, components are bonded together. Here's a nice thread showing some of the chassis components...

http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f259/ou ... ild-94224/

While I suppose "minor" clam damage is acceptable, based on 5 years of lurking on Lotustalk it's impressive how little clam damage can be present that results in a chassis suspension mounting point failure and subsequent "totalling" of the car. "Simple" clam replacement at about $5-6k wouldn't result in it be declared totalled by the insurance companies. I would pass on that AR Elise linked on sccaforums.com above.

A friend of mine who buys boats says he would never buy a fiberglass boat if it had a crack in its hull, and he applied a similar logic. It may be overkill, but he's never made a multi-thousand dollar mistake either.

Chuck Branscomb · **Posted:** Sun Nov 21, 2010 8:09 am

Steven Carter wrote:

...based on 5 years of lurking on Lotustalk...

Repressing something Steve?? :lol:

Aaron Buckley · **Posted:** Sun Nov 21, 2010 8:31 am

Steven Carter wrote:

I would pass on that AR Elise linked on sccaforums.com above.

A friend of mine who buys boats says he would never buy a fiberglass boat if it had a crack in its hull, and he applied a similar logic. It may be overkill, but he's never made a multi-thousand dollar mistake either.

That is one reason I would pass on that one. The other being that of the 5000+ miles on the car, about 3/4 of them are autocros miles.

- AB

DickRasmussen · **Posted:** Sun Nov 21, 2010 8:46 am

Aaron Buckley wrote:

Otherwise, the car is supposed to be dead nuts reliable. I am surprised how many people I have seen on LotusTalk using them as their DD. - AB

It doesn't (or didn't in the past) require "dead nuts reliable" for a US Lotus owner to use it as a DD. I've known lots of Lotus owners who did that . . . including my wife with her 73 and when hers didn't run, my 74. :lol:

That said, I'm sure an Elise actually is "dead nuts reliable". Isn't just about everything these days except for maybe some German marques? :wink:

Donnie Barnes · **Posted:** Sun Nov 21, 2010 8:46 am

I don't know why I'm arguing this other than, well, I can't resist, but anyway...

To each their own on what they'd buy and why. But the thread referenced above appear to be a repair based on an actual crash of some sort (albeit minor, from what I understand). The damage shown on the car for sale is a simple break in a fragile place of the bodywork due to hitting CONES. Is there any link to CONE damage going all the way to the chassis?

I don't get the boat analogy...aren't boat hulls really seriously part of the structure? From what I can tell the Lotus body has very little to do with the structure. Are people who are simply autocrossing their cars and never hit anything more than a cone also having their chassis come apart? If so, well, I wouldn't buy the damned car for that purpose. *shrug*

--Donnie

DickRasmussen · **Posted:** Sun Nov 21, 2010 8:53 am

I had one very short test drive in an Elise. One thing I noticed was that the manual steering might require very strong and "fast" arm muscles to keep up with the very high limits of the car in transitions, etc.

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