THSCC Forums

For me the clock showed I did much better going left in the first turn around, then giving it up early and going right at the first double gate going back through the cross over.



Shoulda,coulda,woulda... I felt like I did everything right on my fastest run. So, congrats Jennifer! That was my best showing in years though. Stephen and I will also need as much good rubber as possible for the previously mentioned "Art ass whipping" at future events.

_________________
2001 Honda S2000 - SOLD
2012 Boss 302
2003 BMW 330i

I will say Kevin and I accomplished our goal given all of this discussion: *truely* optional elements. Too frequently do you see an 'optional' element that has a right way and a slow way.....as in it really isn't optional, is it?

EDIT: Ok, I guess the second pivot wasn't particularly optional....left in was clearly the right choice.

_________________
2011/2012 Autox VP
2013/2014.5 President
2013 Top Gun

2015 Fit

22R-EC => 4G63 => D16Y7 + D16Y8 => EJ255 + K24Z2 => K20Z3 + K24Z2 => K24Z2 + M54 => L15B

For the record, I love pivot cones.

(Well, except the first one on my first run when I couldn't figure out which pedal was the brake and kept trying different ones until it worked...)

Working grid was a little warm -- I survived by leaving my tire sprayer at the grid sign, and every time I reached the end I sprayed the front and back of my tshirt until it was soaked. That worked wonders. (and sucking down a ton of water, of course)

On my last run, the "outside temperature" thermometer on the car said it was 102. Changing back to street tyres, it said 111. Loading the car, 115. Obviously it's probably reading high because of sitting in the sun, but still...

And CONGRATULATIONS JUDI on a well deserved HS win!

(If neither of us had coned our third runs, I would have won... but Judi backed it up in the 4th run, and I couldn't get out of the 62's again. Good job, Judi!)

_________________
Martyn Wheeler
AXing Kit's '05 Mazda 3, #29 HStock
(when The Gonzo Symphonic allows)

i had a great time.

thanks to all who took part and all who setup.

thanks Liz-Ti for the course walk.

Thanks James and Kevin for letting me ride along and seeing how its done.

hopefully I can attend a few more autoXs. the car felt great, espcially at 180K miles. lol.

_________________
'11 RallyX VP
1998 Integra Type R - track fun
1999 Subaru 2.5RS - dirt fun

Thanks! I am super stoked about my first top ten showing!

Great job, Kevin, James, Rodney and the VPs...I know setup was brutal on Saturday! Glad everyone stayed safe and hydrated, particularly for world-record breaking heat!

James, I hope your Koni saga ends soon. I barely fended you off co-driving my car--hate to see what you'd do when I finally dump the stock shocks!

I think I may end up liking pivot cones, if I can ever figure them out. Perhaps after paying more than five Bennies one of those fast dudes will show me the secret (no, "get a better car" is not one of the choices!)

_________________
Steve Carter
1972 Datsun 240Z-- resto pics at http://picasaweb.google.com/srcartermd
2007 GPW Honda S2000-- STR 86

In my case, as soon as I dropped "my issue" with pivot cones, I came to love the damn things. The challenge is so multi-faceted since in most cases you have a straight leading up to the cone. Hence you have to be able to judge maximum braking distance versus time so that you arrive at the entry to the pivot element at "just" the right speed as overdriving the entry to a pivot cone is deadly (always start off erring on the side of caution and work up). Secondly, you need to judge the entry angle, hence as Jackie (my daughter) calls it a "spangle" (speed and angle of approach). My goal is usually to seriously back side the pivot cone with a very late apex which allows huge entry speed into the braking zone and then serious trailing braking during the transition phase (note driving a modern car with a high-performance 4-channel ABS versus an non-ABS car requires a whole different approach). Big power, RWD, and a nice LSD make this a lot fun. So-so power, no LSD and an understeer prone stock class car require a whole different approach.


In any case, just love the damn things and really get into the challenge. One of the hardest things for most people to achieve in the years I used to instruct at track events and especially safety schools is the braking ability of their car versus speed/distance in real-time. The pivot cone, done right, really requires lots of practice since, in my opinion, that speed/distance/braking real-time calculation is soooo non-linear as speed falls toward zero (i.e. pivot cone entry) that we (humans) tend to greatly under or over judge it in real time. Typically beginner drivers tend to greatly underestimate braking ability while autocrossers tend to overestimate it. (I wish I respected what I've written about 25 years sooner )

_________________
Current stable:
2019 BMW M2 Competition slicktop 6MT
2011 BMW M3 sedan slicktop 6MT
2007 BMW 328i wagon (slushbox for now)
1975 CanAm 125MX2

Chuck,
Couldn't agree more....I need to find a way (and a place) to practice judging braking speed vs distance ( cough cough Extreme School cough cough Test n Tune ). I already like them, but have more of a "oh crap, don't mess it up" mentality than a "w00t! Yay--pivot cones!" attitude. I used to seriously underbrake going in, then watch the cone vanish into the distance as my car slid by with ferocious understeer. Now I get the braking a little better, but still misjudge the car-cone distance and entry angle. After reviewing my runs I will definitely do my best to force the SoloPro guys to do "remedial Pivot Cone Theory 101" with me at some point during the Extreme School...

_________________
Steve Carter
1972 Datsun 240Z-- resto pics at http://picasaweb.google.com/srcartermd
2007 GPW Honda S2000-- STR 86

Steve,

I've done the extreme school twice, once with Evo and then SoloPro. Both times we were at Danville, and the course they use doesn't have a pivot cone. However, they setup a sweeper across the runway and then add/subtract a pinch point such that you have to really focus on not overdriving it, etc. The sweeper also has a fast entry. I have some video from the last school I went to someplace here to give you an idea. I'll try to put it on youtube soon. Tim Aro was calling my vision in the video, and I'll tell ya what...working with Tim that day was about the most fun I've ever had driving a car (well, except for perhaps just recently on the street -- just got back from two weeks in Germany and came to love the "end of all limits" sign on the autobahn; what a blast driving there was where people actually know and follow the rules of the road!!!).

Chuck

P.S. Perhaps you can talk with Tim ahead of time and ask for some pivot cone training? Others in the class may enjoy that too?

_________________
Current stable:
2019 BMW M2 Competition slicktop 6MT
2011 BMW M3 sedan slicktop 6MT
2007 BMW 328i wagon (slushbox for now)
1975 CanAm 125MX2

These are wise words, Les.

_________________
Karl S.
2014 Baby, 2014 House, 2013 Ford Focus ST, 2013 BMW 328i, 1994 Mercedes E320
(Insert passive aggressive signature line here)

I'd like to say thanks to all who set up and put on the event. It was my first time driving that aggressively, legally, on pavement and my first time competing in an AutoX. I had a really fun time doing it. I wish I could have remembered to change my tire pressures and adjust my swanky new struts to eliminate some of the understeer, but what are you gonna do? Maybe I'll come back out and give it another shot.

And how about those RallyX guys coming out to support the club, huh? Good times


Also, thanks to Kourosh Neshat, Kevin Allen and Wally Perry for the ride-a-longs and thanks to Matt McGrain and LizTi for the tips and course walk. I learned a lot

_________________
2000 Subaru Impreza 2.5RS, Silver #008
2011 RallyX VP
2011, 2014, 2015 RallyX Champion - NO4

I think the main runway pivot cone this weekend was a first for me. It was an interesting experience. 4 runs I braked far too late, and all 5 runs I turned in too early putting me out in left (right?) field coming out of the turnaround. The taxiway ones seem far easier to me than the runway ones since the borders of the turn are pretty defined for you.

I'm also curious on how 5 speed Miata folks shifted at the start. Jonell mentioned hanging out in first until you are past the crossover then grabbing second. I did this on my last 2 runs and the times came out favorable. However, I'm too inconsistent everywhere else to be able to tell if one change impacted my overall time. It certainly felt faster but that could just be psychological with the engine near the limiter entering the taxiway. I'm running TIR-CSP, but I'm still fairly close to STR as far as prep goes.

I had a blast though, even though I feel like I left a ton of time on the table. The breeze was awesome, I really think I would have had some heat related problems without it. Especially while waiting in line to start. I need to take one of the schools when their schedule puts them back around here.

No problem Ray! I'm glad you and Kourosh made it out from the dirt to tarmac. I really need to make it to an event with you guys this year - seems like an autocross event but just Dukes of Hazzard edition. It's tough to get out with an infant & a weekend work schedule but it's going to happen soon.

Kudos on the course and to all the people that made it run seamlessly even with a finish line 'yardsale' in skiing terms in the fourth heat. j/k

My first run I came to the optional slalom and dipped back to the right for the slow-in, less-slow out and it felt like I was creeping but I just felt that with the offsets before, I'd rather have the momentum heading towards the 'wiggle section' after the transition since I don't have a little of torque with the peaky engine.

I gotta say though, that was different and that typical sweeper usually is the death of me for some reason. Earlier this year I just couldn't get the car settled for some reason and felt like I was loosing tenths. Weird...

The two pivot cones were good because it's never a bad time to improve on these. My issue is that I felt like I was creeeeeeping out of both (clock on the first and counter on the second) because I brake earlier and more than I should b/c the Si brakes seem to be the achille's heel. Does anyone else engine brake by releasing the clutch into first? Just curious because I found myself doing that at each pivot.

Eric, you said something to me that actually helped out on my last run. You told me by just sort of starting with a clean slate and blocking out the bad runs/cone penalties, and other stuff, you can actually drop time even if you don't think you're in the groove.

Karl, you know things are coming together when you don't expect to be near the top on the days you don't feel fast, but still land in fifth because of good driving habits, even on mediocre tires. Nicely done & thanks for the kind words. I figured out the trick to make the Si quicker than it should be, pretend it's a Type R and drive it like one and hope for the best!

Way to go Maria in TIR class - great turnout, that must have been awesome to have that many good drivers battling it out. You too Jennifer in CS and pax. Seems like you're finding more time at each event.

I was going to do the first pivot cone the traditional way (clockwise) until I saw Keith doing it Counterclockwise and did the (gee if the good people are doing it that way it must be right ) I think in the end it didn't make much difference, but....

I liked the 90 degree turn. In my car I think that if I treated it like a sweeper and had the perfect exit at the end so I could make the next slalom it might have been faster but I never tried it. I had enough problems with the heat, the pivot cones and the varying weight of my car

I shifted right before the first right hand turn, I think if I had waited longer I would have been in the middle of the turn and there isn't much to gain from keeping the revs up at redline that long.

I really liked the runway section of the course. It was a blast with the exception of the damn pivot cone which while I can drive them better now, I still just can't learn to love them. I think I left some time coming back down the runway.

good job

After watching a few people, I decided to try going left at the taxiway pivot cone and right coming back through the crossover and picked up a second by making those small changes.

Martyn and I had fun on Sunday, but missed having Gwen in HS. She made the right decision though as the heat wasn't a joke out there.

_________________
Judi Westerfield

'09 Infiniti M35
'07 Honda Fit Sport
'00 GMC Sierra
'95 Ford Mustang GT
'92 Acura Integra LS