THSCC Forums

And what's not allowed? I just want to make sure I know, and make the discussion public so that it's not a secret.

In the past, we've set up the course, tested it, tweaked it, tested some more, finalized it, marked it, and then some or all of the following has occurred...

-We get to run from finish to start through the course (not necessarily following the whole thing if there's more fun to be had by skipping part of it) until we get tired of playing or the sun goes down.

-Somebody takes some extra cones and goes to set up a slalom or other element to play on.

-If somebody's not competing the next day, he's free to drive the course from start to finish as much as he wants.



I ask this because I want to have some playtime with my STi in a place and at a time that won't impact other people's lives or be interfered with by law enforcement or the general public.

I know that some people get really freaked out by some of the things I do with my car, if I do them at regular autox competition days. Some people even don't believe I'm doing them intentionally, but am on the verge of going completely out of control and killing dozens of people.

So I'd like to know whether I can have some fun with my car on the setup day for Danville (and future setup days), or whether I'll be limited to simply setting up a course and then going home. Because that's a lot of time invested, and I'd like to get a good return on my investment.

And I'm including the poll to see what the forum members in general think. I think that as long as people keep it safe, they should be able to play as much as they want after they've put in all the time and labor of chairing an event, or helping with setup.

Richard, let me know if any of this might sound offensive to somebody, and I'll edit it. I don't want this one locked.

Really? A poll? Is it that important?

Its all fun and games until someone goes a bit too far and something bad happens and we lose the site

or someone wrecks a car


or someone, god forbid, gets hurt

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02 Focus SVT
STF 9

Sounds to me like some people have different ideas about what is safe or not for the club's insurance and you're looking for some blanket statement about it to CYA.

Your general attitude on the other thread(s) has probably polluted any ability for there to be a rational discussion, honestly. The whole "you think I'm out of control but I can be in complete control even though all four tires are sliding for seconds at a time" thing is a bit ridiculous. Whether it's true or not, if you're out there with that as your goal, and you obviously are out there with that as your goal, from the sound of it, you're not doing what the club's insurance policy covers. Period. And if the insurance doesn't cover it, you shouldn't be doing it. Period.


--Donnie

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My Blog

The club's insurance doesn't cover oversteer? Or handbrake turns? At a rallycross the car is sliding all of the time-- what does it matter if you do the same thing on Tarmac?

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"Build a man a fire and he'll stay warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he'll stay warm the rest of his life."
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'98 BMW M3
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Thanks for toning it down Kevin

To your question/poll...

I have never chaired an event and... I don't think I have helped setup before I have at least helped break things down. Anyhow, my opinion is that the two options listed in your poll are not enough. That is may not be quite that black and white. That in addition to the general CYA and insurance issues there is a bunch of "it depends" in there somewhere.

Overall, I think that if you help setup, it should be because you want to help and not to expect to get something out of such as play time. I can see how testing the course to make sure it works, etc. could be fun and might be part of the perks of helping setup. But I don't think there should be some type of general "if I help, we get to play" quid pro quo.

I also think that some of the things you enjoy doing are outside of the normal "autocross" style of driving, so that makes it hard to put it into the "testing the course" category. That gets to the heart of the insurance point. I have no idea how our policy is written, but lets talk a scenario here...

You setup the course, as part of the setup, someone runs through to check it out and ends up hitting a light pole, fence, etc. and does damage to the site. The question is asked "what was going on?" If you can make a truthful and valid argument that what you were doing was part of the typical setup for an autocross, then I suspect you may not feel the wrath of the site owner and the insurance company.

The alternate scenario is that you setup an alternate course, or you start driving outside of the marked off course, or you drive in a style that is outside of the norms for an autocross and you have the same incident, then I think we are in trouble.

The bottom line is that I think if anyone is at the point in their THSCC career that they are helping setup for events that they are acting as representatives of the club and have to hold themselves to a higher level.
I also think to a certain degree this also applies to any old timer who knows the ropes.

We have all seen a novice do something really stupid at an event. It is somewhat expected, but you hope that someone pulls them aside and says "don't do that again". But I think it also rubs people the wrong way when "Hey yall! Watch this" moments happens with people who have been around a long time and should know better. The problem we have here is that there is a difference of opinion as to what is excessive at events in addition to what is allowed during setup.

As others have mentioned, you have great car control skills. Please take that as the compliment it is meant to be. However, just because you find it fun and your ability allows you to push the envelope higher (or in unexpected ways) than others can, that does not give you the right to do so.

I hope this helps somehow.

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Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

The club's insurance technically doesn't cover rallycross. And yet a couple of cars have rolled at rallycrosses - or is it 4 now? And we still allow rallycross. I know of a few people who are against having rallyxes for that reason.

Richard - thanks. I appreciate your mature response.

I guess several years ago when I was chairing more events and helping with setup more, things were different, and I got used to the relaxed atmosphere of those days. Now times have changed - I've been seeing it for a few years now, and it seems to be getting worse. That's why I'm getting so irritable about this topic, I guess.

I'm just trying to figure out what's allowed and what's not allowed. I don't really care about winning trophies anymore (and maybe that pisses some people off -- that I don't take autox seriously?), I just want to play with my car in a secluded place where I won't get into trouble. And I know there are other people who feel the same way. So if we can get some playtime on setup days, when the novices aren't watching, I'm all for it.

Otherwise, I guess I just need a definition of "excessive" - because obviously mine doesn't work.

i wonder if maybe Randy Melton might not want to weigh in on Kevin's conundrum? Randy has many reasons for no longer attending THSCC AutoXs i believe. his reputation is not one of them i'm sure. Randy could hold a clinic on throttle oversteer. i have fond memories of his smoky run at G-Vegas several years ago.

i feel for you Kevin. sometimes it is difficult to express some individuality within a tight knit group. if you are assing off it is one thing, but if you are drifting a course of your design while running it backwards on a set-up day.................... where only half a dozen people might be in attendance, what is the harm?

apparently, the harm is in the tenuous relationship the club has with its site owners Kevin. maybe you should be more involved in the face to face with the site owners. as a site owner yourself i think you get where i'm coming from.

IMO, if the site owners don't care, you should be burning rubber off your tires sideways on set-up day. afterall, how else can anyone be sure the course is safe with out pressing the envelope first?

as for driving like that on event day, that would be your call. most here will see it as dangerous to fellow participants. let's face it, many of us are not overly popular within the rank and file here. myself, i just piss people off with the dumb shit i type.

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BenchWarmer Motorsports

another one of those damn LeMons heads

just another Chump

we are an Autocross Club Dammit............

I'm astounded that you would even post this as if it's some kind of argument in favor of what you want to do. I mean it sounds like "we've already got all this other liability over here with no protection, what's a little bit more?"

Insurance issues aside, this is about site availability, something the rallyx folks should know a LOT about. Sounds like there have been a LOT fewer sites available for rallyx than autox, even though "all we need is a big field." Gee, wonder why that is? Surely lack of insurance hasn't got anything to do with it? Or is there really a lack of "big fields"?

Either way, it sounds like what you're doing could look to an outsider like you're at least dangerous and possibly a dangerous jackass. If that outsider happens to be the site owner or someone with the site owner's ear, well, we all lose. Sounds like the club doesn't want to be associated with that kind of thing. Get over it.


--Donnie

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My Blog

Seriously?

1. 2 of the 3 RX sites ever used were owned by club members. All of our autox sites are owned by folks to whom which we are probably an annoyance at best. Hell for a time there we almost lost Laurinburg.

2. I'd also take a guess the average speed is lower at RX than what Kevin wants to do.

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02 Focus SVT
STF 9

I've chaired an event before (one) and frankly, just really enjoyed the ability to dictate what the course was for the day. It poured down rain for my setup, but I still had fun. I got an event for free, and everyone was very appreciative of the whole thing. Is that not enough?

I'll grant that I don't exactly have an awesome drift-mobile that I want to tear up tires in, but really, is that necessary? This is not drifting, was never intended to be. If you want to drift, there are forums for that. This is not one of them. Drifters have to pay a lot more for what they do, b/c they need larger sites to do it safely. Lawyers suck. Sorry.

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i'd like to hear from some of the other event chairs from the past. i've done a handful, and i never did it so i could "play around" any more than running the course to make sure it's safe and to figure out crossover intervals.

also, i don't think you are going to get a definition of "excessive" as it depends on the site IMO. GVegas would be one site i wouldn't mess around with. Someone is always around, the site has tight quarters, and the fact that it's someone's parking lot and is tied directly to how they make their living, not just a run down airport. laurinburg, sanford, danville - probably a slightly different story

in general, i think chairs are generally left to determine what's "excessive" because they are seen as responsible individuals that care about the club and not-screwing-it-up-for-everyone-else more than they do themselves.

if you really wanted a definition of "excessive" you would have gone straight to the officers and kept this quiet...but you made it public and brought all kinds of attention to this topic and yourself...the only reason i can see to take it public is to somehow denegrate the current officers by making them seem "no fun".

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05 MCS

Wow, here's a hot button topic that Kevin has brought up. I've been watching this all day w/ all of the different answers. First, I'll add my 2cents to Michael's comment. Yes, the cars do slide in both venues, so I don't think that's the issue here. Whether the cars slides or rotates by the over zealousness of the driver or due to the not yet learned driving skills isn't really the question as long as they are trying to drive the course. When you purposely drive outside of the course to execute "on the edge driving skills", is an issue and potentially dangerous because folks aren't expecting it. The question is, as Kevin stated, what's allowed during a setup day. Good question.

There isn't one of us here that wouldn't want to turn their car completely loose out on some strip of asphalt just to see what the car can do. If you say you don't, you're lying. I can't call the kettle black because I'm just as guilty as Kevin is, just w/ lessor skills. I'll be the first to admit I really get a high degree of satisfaction from laying down that perfect drift in a wide sweeper both during an event and during setup days. Driver verses machine and driver wins.

This is quite the gray area we are in right now. What's right, what's wrong. Drift or not, u-brake turn or not. I've actually brought this question up before myself in asking if we could hold a non-autox event where folks could play. I think the answer was no, but may be worth exploring again.

Insurance is something we need to talk to Bowie about. There are no easy answers to this, but thinking from a club perspective, what are we saying to the public when we get outwardly verbose w/ our driving? What are we saying to the newbies that want to come learn new skills? We all aspire to have fun and become great autoxer's. I think what Kevin is doing is just a natural progression of wanting to learn more car control skills.

Is Greenville the time and place to do it? I think at a small venue like g-ville, no. Not enough run off room if someone gets out of control. We are also under constant supervision at this site, so we have to be on our best behavior. If we are at L-burg where all we're going to do is scaring some birds, well.... maybe so. But to what degree?

I have no ready made answer to this one, but it's one the club and officers should explore. The only thought I have to this right now is be smart and think about you're actions and the potential impact to newbies and spectators. All of us represent the club while we're on course and at an event.

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Rodney

'08 Bullitt mustang, CAM 7
Autox VP '09-'10, President '11-'12, interim President 2nd half of ‘14
proud recipient of the Bowie Grey service award '12
Now just a guy driving a mustang....

Drifting is drifting. Autocross is autocross. Rallycross is rallycross. The track program? You get the idea. I don't see a drifting component to the club. If someone wants to start one, fine. But autocross or autocross event setup is not the place for drifting practice for reasons already stated.

And you don't speak for everyone, Rodney. Do I occasionally enjoy hanging the rear of a car out? Sure, but only very occasionally. Not enough that I'd bother wasting rubber on it if I had a perfectly good autocross course in front of me where I could be practicing USEFUL skills. But I have no aspirations of drifting or even rallycross, I admit.

I am sympathetic to those who do want to do this kind of thing. I wish you did have an avenue for it. Not enough to help you get one, mind you, but enough that this wasn't an issue. It's fun to a lot of people...I get that. But with the potential dangers of losing sites as well as liability, this seems like a no-brainer to keep to a minimum until someone does the legwork to legitimize it (site owner approvals, proper insurance, investigating proper safety standards for workers and/or spectators, etc).


--Donnie

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Exactly. I guess I could have stated that better. Drifting is scrubbing off speed, but every now and then, it's a blast.

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Rodney

'08 Bullitt mustang, CAM 7
Autox VP '09-'10, President '11-'12, interim President 2nd half of ‘14
proud recipient of the Bowie Grey service award '12
Now just a guy driving a mustang....