autoX brake pad opinions?

Steven Carter · **Posted:** Mon May 17, 2010 3:51 pm

Thanks to a reference to KNS in another thread I perused this sponsor's site thinking about new brake pads for the WRX...are the Carbotech Bobcat and AX6 worth the price premium over the Stoptech or Hawk pads? And with either of these pads would there be a concern about swapping between these for autoX and using OE pads for daily driving? Is there a legit reason to have matching rotors for each pad type, OE vs Stop/Carbotech?

Also, if you want some nerdy reading the Stoptech Brake White papers are pretty cool...

http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/tech_white_papers.shtml

Thanks in advance!

JamesShort · **Posted:** Mon May 17, 2010 4:38 pm

Seems a lot of autox-ers hate on Hawk despite the relative popularity of them for 'performance street cars'.

My impression, at least from Nasioc, is that Hawk pads are for people who just put worthless cross drilled and/or slotted rotors on their WRX/STI along with maybe a BBK or Brembo swap and are too vain to run OEM pads or pads that cost lest than $100 an axle

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........all the while they are running crappy all season tires and therefore are traction limited and not braking system limited in threshold braking and don't track the car and therefore need not the fade resistance or heat capacity that the BBK/Brembos/fancy rotors (<--probably not) offer.

Ok that's enough blanket statements for one day

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The stoptech street performance pad is getting glowing reviews from the subie folks that actually autox/track their cars. Apparently the initial bite is solid and the fade resistance is unlike any pad that has the word 'street' in the title and all the while don't dust like the Axxis Ultimates do (did you see my wheels....they were clean on Thursday). So at $68 an axle, seems like a risk worth taking to try them out.....with your 64.3s yesterday on OEM pads, it can ONLY be better from a braking standpoint

as in you are not being held back by crappy pads to the point that you NEED better pads

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BriceJohnson · **Joined:** Thu Apr 13, 2006 7:33 am **Posts:** 2230

FWIW, lots of people hate on them, but I like my hawk HPS pads, and I fit none of the desciptions that James was talking about. I like them much better than OEM as I feel they are easier to modulate.

I've never tried carbotech's though, so I can't speak to that.

JamesShort · **Posted:** Mon May 17, 2010 5:14 pm

BriceJohnson wrote:

FWIW, lots of people hate on them, but I like my hawk HPS pads, and I fit none of the desciptions that James was talking about. I like them much better than OEM as I feel they are easier to modulate.

I've never tried carbotech's though, so I can't speak to that.

Come on Brice you know you want 6 pot fixed Porsche Brembos and 14" rotors on the 3

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Dustin Fredrickson · **Posted:** Mon May 17, 2010 5:32 pm

BriceJohnson wrote:

FWIW, lots of people hate on them, but I like my hawk HPS pads, and I fit none of the desciptions that James was talking about. I like them much better than OEM as I feel they are easier to modulate.

I've never tried carbotech's though, so I can't speak to that.

Also FWIW, I suspect that for autocross, "feel" and "modulation" are the key, and these things can be very different using the same pad compound on different cars.

I used HPS's on the Miata for a long time, and thought I liked them well enough, right up until we put the PBR ULT's (aka Axxis Ultimates) on the car for track. I haven't put the HPS's back on since - even if they dust moderately.

Finally, from what I've heard, and experienced myself on the track pad side, Hawk pads in general don't like being "mixed" on rotors with other pad compounds. Thus, if you're going to switch back and forth between pads, best to have another set of rotors.

Kevin Allen · **Joined:** Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:42 pm **Posts:** 3479

HPS has worked great for autox and street on my Impreza RSes and WRXes. HP+ was great at VIR on the RSes. No need to switch pads with HPS, unless you just hate cleaning wheels once a week.

The Brembos have stock pads in them, and are way better than any of that stuff so far.

Had Carbotech Bobcats on the 2004 STi (previous owner put them there), and they were pretty good, too. I'm thinking they wore out pretty quick, though.

JohnByers · **Posted:** Mon May 17, 2010 5:37 pm

I have the Hawk HP Plus on the Bimmer and so far have been very happy with them in the dept of stopping power. In the brake dust dept they suck lol but I know you can't have the best of both worlds.

Kevin Allen · **Joined:** Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:42 pm **Posts:** 3479

Dustin Fredrickson wrote:

BriceJohnson wrote:

FWIW, lots of people hate on them, but I like my hawk HPS pads, and I fit none of the desciptions that James was talking about. I like them much better than OEM as I feel they are easier to modulate.

I've never tried carbotech's though, so I can't speak to that.

Also FWIW, I suspect that for autocross, "feel" and "modulation" are the key, and these things can be very different using the same pad compound on different cars.

I used HPS's on the Miata for a long time, and thought I liked them well enough, right up until we put the PBR ULT's (aka Axxis Ultimates) on the car for track. I haven't put the HPS's back on since - even if they dust moderately.

Finally, from what I've heard, and experienced myself on the track pad side, Hawk pads in general don't like being "mixed" on rotors with other pad compounds. Thus, if you're going to switch back and forth between pads, best to have another set of rotors.

I used Axxis Ultimates on one of my RSes. Worked great at autoxes and VIR, but on the street way too much dust and it was like having an on/off switch connected to the brake pedal.

Chris Landi · **Joined:** Mon Mar 08, 2004 6:31 pm **Posts:** 579

You can throw Ferrodo DS2500's into the mix too. Relatively low dusting for street use and a great consistent bite and pedal feel. I used Bobcats prior to the DS2500's and got rid of them after a few thousand miles. They were very inconsistent for me.

KendtEklund · **Joined:** Tue Mar 27, 2007 7:29 pm **Posts:** 1204

Dustin Fredrickson wrote:

Also FWIW, I suspect that for autocross, "feel" and "modulation" are the key, and these things can be very different using the same pad compound on different cars.

I used HPS's on the Miata for a long time, and thought I liked them well enough, right up until we put the PBR ULT's (aka Axxis Ultimates) on the car for track. I haven't put the HPS's back on since - even if they dust moderately.

I'll add a +1 on the PBRs - I switched to them after reading Dustin's recommendation so I'd have something easier to modulate on my first non-ABS car w/ r-comps. This past weekend was my first with them and I was very pleased. I don't care about the dust - black street wheels

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Steven Carter · **Posted:** Mon May 17, 2010 8:34 pm

Thanks for the help!

I have begun noticing that the initial bite on my OEM pads (2009 WRX) is more of a toothless gumming, and in some cases makes me feel like I'm going to miss my entry point to slaloms. Either the ABS works totally seamlessly or my legs are weak, but despite some pretty aggressive braking I still couldn't get the ABS to activate, makes me think I can add a more aggressive compund that has better cold-temp torque/bite than my OEMs to enable better braking without hitting the ABS threshold Probably don't want too much initial bite or it could be an on/off switch phenomenon as mentioned earlier, and I was able to modulate some steering by tapping the brakes an inducing some oversteer...

Thanks for the "matching rotors" confirmation with Hawk pads. I'll have to add that to the math!

No Carbotech AX6 experience? Trying to figure out if it's worth 2.5x the cost...From that marketing blurb it sounds like a similar ceramic based compound from the Bobcats--so it will be an event-only pad. more reading required.....

JamesShort · **Posted:** Mon May 17, 2010 8:47 pm

Hmmmm, those star specs must grip REALLY well....I hit ABS actuation with the RS2s and the axxis ults almost every time I broke (which was too much admittedly).

Steven Carter · **Posted:** Mon May 17, 2010 9:38 pm

Could just be me. I hit the ABS in the M roadster and I can really feel the pedal pulsate, but maybe the Subaru is much more subtle? Dunno. Also didn't really hear the car hit the rev limiter either. I'll chalk it up to being focused. :lol:

Karl Shultz · **Posted:** Mon May 17, 2010 11:04 pm

This is further proof that everyone's different. I tried HP Plus on the S2000 and hated them. Way too grabby for me, I was either doing endos in the car or not braking at all. I switched to BHPs shortly thereafter, and continue to be thrilled with them. The substitute is a Mintex compound that Matt Nicholson had a friend of his bring over from the UK. They're the same compound, and allegedly, they can be gotten through this guy, but I haven't tried yet. I have a new set of fronts in the garage but will need rears too.

My second choice would be Carbotech Bobcats. I've had them on three vehicles and LOVED them. Plenty of stopping power without being overly grabby. Low dusting for what they were. And for me, they wore like iron. Kevin Butler has them on his Excursion, a truck which used to belong to me. Last I asked him, they were still doing great. BTW Steve, no need to switch pads on event day with Bobcats. They were great street pads. They're even pretty quiet.

Carl Fisher · **Posted:** Tue May 18, 2010 6:39 am

I ran Hawk HP+ all the time (street/autoX/rallyX) for years and loved the feel and the stopping power of them. Not so fond of the dust, or the squealing which sounded "like a race car" at first but got a bit old after a while.

I tried 2 sets of Bobcats- they were fine at first but at the first autocross they overheated (or something, I have no idea) and were only barely tolerable on the street after that. Thinking I must have gotten a bad set somehow, I tried again with the same results.

Definitely interested in this thread- I want something with more stopping power for the Protege.

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