THSCC Forums

Diane, you are right. I think I just wasn't very clear on why I thought that a ban on R tires in NOV works. I works because it makes the current ban on ST* classes in NOV fair. You still would not be allowed to run ST* pax in NOV. It would convert NOV from newbie Open class to newbie TIR class. While I think that works, I personally think the best way to go is to just let all cars run as classed.

I really don't personally care about this that much. Not sure why I keep posting about it. I just understand why it confuses and aggravates people. And those that usually walk away with a puzzled look are spouses or friends that you are trying to get involved in the sport. They just don't understand why if they drive the same car as you, that you can't be classified the same way as you in NOV. They feel like there is basically a rule against them. It is just one small strike against you in your efforts to convince someone to join in on the madness.



Unfortunate, but true. I think I will shutup now and stop posting about this.

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Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

I just wanted to thank the other trash-talkers for coning. Thanks, guys!

Let me add my self absorbed 2 cents worth. I have a confession to make. I believe that I was one of the first if not the first to take advantage of the sts pax as a nov. I have been burdened with this guilt for almost four years. I wish that the results archive was on line to either confirm my guilt or exonerate me. It happened at Rocky Mount in the summer of 2000. I was driving an Integra GSR while my closest competitor was driving a Contour SVT. We were both on street tires. He ran G-stock, I ran STS. He had a better raw time but I out-mathed him. I have had to drive a different car every season to try to forget. To have others forget that I was the jerk in the 1999 white Acura Integra GSR 4 door sedan, with the black front bra and the white rear spoiler, who exploited the rules. I have been burdened with this shame for low so many years. They say that confession is good for the soul. I hope that this can be the first step in the healing process.

By the way, I met Brian and his wife this weekend. They seem okay to me
Brian, you need to move to street mod or something

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2003 Matrix XRS notaminivan
2004 Subaru WRX #38
2000 Rally Focus
2007 Honda NFR S2000

Heh, I remember when that caused a huge argument on the mailing list. A bunch of people just started signing up as STS just so they could get a better pax in NOV. After the argument, I think everybody that did legally class as STS signed up as STR voluntarily, and others just switched back to their correct open class, since I don't think the STR pax was very "friendly". I think people were more annoyed by the fact that you could do that, more than at the people who actually did it. Can't fault someone for taking advantage of the rules.

I think the rules for the NOV class are fine. Yeah, technically we should should ban R tires for the the whole pax advantage thing to work. Novices shouldn't run on race tires anyway until they have enough experience to take advantage of them. They just end up hiding sloppy driving. Banning tires could screw up 2 driver cars if one is a NOV and the other is not though, so I say just leave it alone.

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Jonathan
'86.5 Toyota Supra
'89 Porsche 928 GT

I rescind my part of the discussion.
Thanks for the responses, and it has helped to have clarified some 'history' issues for me.

No, Stacy nor I really care. I was just pointing out something I thought that 'looked' like it was out of proportion and I was sharing my point of view.

That was all.

Thanks!

- Brian



I was thinking about it heavily. I just could not find an engine mangement system that I trusted, and I did not want to turn my car into what is required to be competitive for SM.

STX is about the trim level I want to run the car at, and is what I can afford. Now, once I own an STi after a year or two... we will see then.

I will have fun and not touch the car this year and get to become a better driver before I throw anything else at the car.

I think people need to get over the whole "tire exclusion" thing. The rules are there. Everybody knows well in advance what the rules are. If you want to run Azenis in TIRE, but you don't want to drive to the event on them, fine, there is no rule against it. Just be ready to here people bitch about you not being in the "spirit of the class". If you can afford to run Hoosiers as a NOV, more power to you. You won't learn as much about car control, but hey, if that's what you want to do, then fine, it's legal.

If we want to change the rules, then we need to it the proper way. I don't think that crying a 7 page thread is good for anything except for making people mad and hurting people's feelings. We now know how people feel, if we want changes, then someone needs to step up and get the ball rolling. If not, then we need to drop the subject.

This is supposed to be a FUN sport. We are not racing for World Championships here. I know that we have several people in the club that are nationally competitive, but they aren't the ones affected by Azenis in TIRE or R's in NOV.

If we keep whinning like this, it will only serve to lower our membership numbers.

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Todd Breakey
STS 42 - 1992 Sunburst Miata
Dammit!
"You souldn't play leap frog with a porcupine. You might get hurt." - Eliza

Sorry to have added to beating a dead horse. I guess since it is such an 'open' area in the rules, that is why there is such heated debate about it on both sides. I just happen to have chosen a side since it affected me. In two more events, it wont affect either of us anyway .

Just for the record - my Azenis are daily driven, and yes, i drove to the event with them (and back home too!)

- Brian

Ps. I love the Yell-OH mustng. That thing was sweet

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02 Focus SVT
STF 9

Best post ever!

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David Teague
2015 Lexus IS 250c
1994 Honda Del Sol HS 39
2009 Dodge Journey R/T
http://teaguefamily.us

I think these kinds of discussions are healthy for the club. We really do not discuss anything at the club meetings where it would be more appropriate. So this is the only "forum" there is.

The TIR class issue should be discussed at the meetings to see if any changes need to be made. Since the season has started, it is too late for that. If an individual has an idea to improve the way NOV is scored, shoot the idea out here and then maybe at one of the meetings.

With the advent of the new SCCA classes over the past three years, these are good points that may need to be addressed.

My feeling is the sport is changing every year, so the status quo is what can hurt the competition level and the club participation.

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Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

If you want to add a treadwear rating of 140 or greater to NOV, that may not be a bad idea. The problem is you need to adjust the PAX for the classes that can run DOT-R tires.

For arguement's sake:
STS = DSP
STX = ESP
STS2 = CSP

The average difference in PAX is about 3.39%. So to be fair, you need to reduce the DOT-R class PAX by 3.39%. The SCCA has their own index for Pro Solo and it is close but not equal to the RTP-PAX index published by the good folks in CENDIV.

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Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

While we are speaking of CLASS PAX, where exactly do you find that, and how it it applied to your RAW time? I understand your car's PAX, but I have no clue how much of a 'boost' NOVs get. How significant is it?

Thanks!

- Brian

Very few novices, if any run R compound tires.Let's assume that I'm a novice (not that big of a stretch). So if I have a G stock car but choose to run as an STS car (better pax) and I then run an identical time as a car that is running g-stock nov, I would beat that car based solely on math. The club's rule about novices and sts is a well intentioned attempt at fairness, but it's impossible to be fair to everyone in every instance. Again this theory is based on the assumption that novices don't normally run on R compound tires.

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2003 Matrix XRS notaminivan
2004 Subaru WRX #38
2000 Rally Focus
2007 Honda NFR S2000

Just an observation: STS has a tougher PAX than GS.
I now return you to your previous discussions already in progress...

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SPIN or WIN!
there's no glory for going slow.