TIR Class Exclusion List

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Thu Mar 18, 2004 3:13 pm

The mighty morphing thread.

How many topics have been covered in 5 pages?

Chuck Frank · **Posted:** Thu Mar 18, 2004 6:10 pm

Chris, I won't quote it again but it WAS FUNNY! :lol:

Todd Breakey · **Posted:** Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:13 pm

Chris, that was hilarious!!!!

Graham Jagger · **Joined:** Fri Aug 29, 2003 12:53 am **Posts:** 1718

Thanks Chris I needed a good laugh today. That was funnier than listening to the boys talking trash

I hope the sky is blue and not grey on Sunday...

Graham

Brian Herring · **Posted:** Sat Mar 20, 2004 9:17 am

jimpastorius wrote:

The point here is, if they are a novice, let them run the car as classed. If they show up with a totally prepped car or get a great co-drive offer, well then good for them! If they do well, they will win and no longer be allowed in NOV class. The current rule would only make sense if you excluded R tires in NOV and we don't do that.

I would just like to pipe in my two cents, gentlement.

While I have read through this whole thread, I understand both sides of the arguement, strictly sticking to the NOV part of the thread (not the TIR discussion).

I think that this post shows a REALLY good point, and a reason why NOV might not be allowed in ST*:

MikeWhitney wrote:

I haven't read all the posts, but I thought I could shed some light on why ST* classes aren't in NOV, since I think I helped push the rule through.

NOV is an "assumed" street tire class. Sure, every once in a while someone shows up co-driving a car with R-comps, but it's pretty rare actually.

When STS was available in NOV, everyone with a legal car was running it. STS was dominating NOV since 2/3 of the stock class cars could run there at an advantage. The STS pax wasn't working where nearly everyone runs on street tires.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. It's just a matter of minimizing badness. No good solution, except perhaps banning r-comps from NOV. But it's such a minor problem, who cares?

For the record, I do *not* believe that ST* eligible cars should be banned from TIR. I have my own reasons, which may or may not be as valid as anyone else's counterargument. But I still wish TIR would go away

While this does show a good application of the exploit of the ST* PAX, it fails to show the flip side of this arguement.

For this weekend's autoX, I am running STX OPEN, and my wife is a NOV. Since she CANNOT run in STXL as a NOV, I have to bump her to ESPL. While this is not a huge deal (since she is a NOV), it will make for a PITA weekend since we could possibly be in two different run groups. That will split us up, and make the time most unpleasant.

If we choose to both run in STX, she will be at a 'disadvantage' since she would be forced to run the open class. I don't think that anyone should be FORCED to give up their NOV runs. I mean, I understand people who do not want to be 'de-throned' by a NOV who is getting too much of a PAX handicap, but it is for what, (1) race? And it is in PAX, so - in my mind - they will be regulated back afterwards, and lets see them kick but in STX without a close to preped car.

Back to my point, my wife (Stacy) isnt nearly as competitive as me, and it MIGHT not bother her to run with a lower PAX 'help'. However, I don't think she deserves to be slighted of running a rightfully STX ride and given a 'tougher' PAX because some people don't want 'one race NOV wonders'.

NOV should only be competing with NOVs, and since we dont have a year round NOV class, DONT include them in the whole field PAX. That way the big boys are happy to not have 'cheaters' among their ranks, and those who are NOVs actually in ST* cars will prevail since they are better preped.

Just my thought, and please feel freet to give constructuve criticism. I want Stacy to have all the chances to *win* her class (or do the best che can, even if that is not her goal [to win]), and I don't think it is fair that she is denied that because of some *S people wanting to exploit a ST* PAX (where street tires are only allowed).

Chris Brown · **Posted:** Sat Mar 20, 2004 9:40 am

i'm not the event chair or anything, but i think if you just ask one of them, they would let you run together and still stay STX and ESPL...i would go that route first and if they refuse, then you might have a legit issue.

Brian Herring · **Posted:** Sat Mar 20, 2004 10:04 am

Chris Brown wrote:

i'm not the event chair or anything, but i think if you just ask one of them, they would let you run together and still stay STX and ESPL...i would go that route first and if they refuse, then you might have a legit issue.

I thank you for this input. That will at least make the weekend run a little more fun, and I hope that I am allowed to do so.

However, I still have a 'mental' problem with her having to run a harder PAX to make it more fair to everyone else. While I am all about fair, it is NOT going to impact the front runners even if she had NOV and ST* PAX. Even if Tom was NOV ST* PAX'd, it would be a one event fluke, and then you would be back to your normal season programming. Their PAX score would not count towards any 'season' points either.

I guess I am just missing the crux of teh arguement, and where all the "hate" is coming from. I mean, so what if NOV finish 1-2-3-4-5 in PAX.... other than getting 'beat' by a NOV, what does that mean? Is there any PAX overall point championship or something?

It just seems kinda 'weird' that ST* (or any group of drivers) would be excluded from something that everyone else gets (the only reason for which that I can understand why people WANT to run here is due to the correlating Street Tire limit).

Once again, thanks for the info. I truly appreciate it, and I understand that all the members here have MUCH more *expereince* with this than I do. I bow generously to those experiences, but I am still 'missing the point', I guess.

Heck, if it is that big of a deal, just make a YEARLY NOV run group (like most other regions), and move all the NOVs to competing together. That should solve that PAX problem then, and it SHOULD be a simple spreadsheet formula change... I am guessing.

Anyway, thanks, and I always enjoy the THSCC autoXes... no slight to anyone or the rules.. just giving my n00b opinion.

- Brian

Adam Ligon · **Posted:** Sat Mar 20, 2004 10:21 am

Brian Herring wrote:

Chris Brown wrote:

i'm not the event chair or anything, but i think if you just ask one of them, they would let you run together and still stay STX and ESPL...i would go that route first and if they refuse, then you might have a legit issue.

I thank you for this input. That will at least make the weekend run a little more fun, and I hope that I am allowed to do so.

However, I still have a 'mental' problem with her having to run a harder PAX to make it more fair to everyone else. While I am all about fair, it is NOT going to impact the front runners even if she had NOV and ST* PAX. Even if Tom was NOV ST* PAX'd, it would be a one event fluke, and then you would be back to your normal season programming. Their PAX score would not count towards any 'season' points either.

I guess I am just missing the crux of teh arguement, and where all the "hate" is coming from. I mean, so what if NOV finish 1-2-3-4-5 in PAX.... other than getting 'beat' by a NOV, what does that mean? Is there any PAX overall point championship or something?

It just seems kinda 'weird' that ST* (or any group of drivers) would be excluded from something that everyone else gets (the only reason for which that I can understand why people WANT to run here is due to the correlating Street Tire limit).

Once again, thanks for the info. I truly appreciate it, and I understand that all the members here have MUCH more *expereince* with this than I do. I bow generously to those experiences, but I am still 'missing the point', I guess.

Heck, if it is that big of a deal, just make a YEARLY NOV run group (like most other regions), and move all the NOVs to competing together. That should solve that PAX problem then, and it SHOULD be a simple spreadsheet formula change... I am guessing.

Anyway, thanks, and I always enjoy the THSCC autoXes... no slight to anyone or the rules.. just giving my n00b opinion.

- Brian

Ok I think you are missing some of the reasons for autoxing.

Its supposed to be fun first and foremost. And while in an ideal world it would be nice if you and your better half could run together, there are many people who codrive who don't always run in the same group.

Also if you are so concerned about her being in the running to "win" something I think you are missing the whole point of the NOV class. As soon as someone trophies in NOV they are kicked into open for good. NOV is for people to get their feet wet in autox and to be driving with other people with similar experience.

I a not trying to sound mean or pick on you guys by any means. I just think you are making way to much of a big deal about all this, when in the end its all about having fun and becoming a better driver.

Brian Herring · **Posted:** Sat Mar 20, 2004 11:27 am

Adam Ligon wrote:

Also if you are so concerned about her being in the running to "win" something I think you are missing the whole point of the NOV class. As soon as someone trophies in NOV they are kicked into open for good. NOV is for people to get their feet wet in autox and to be driving with other people with similar experience.

I am aware of this. I am currently running OPEN.

Furthermore, fun is #1, but the whole reason why we have these rules is to give friendly competition. Discussions like these start because, while people want friendly, they want everything to be on a level playing field.

Also, I believe that most people who autoX have a competitive nature as THAT is why we have rules, and we just aren't going around cones without times (whether you compete with yourself, for time, or for others).

I am just trying to nicely point out an issue I think that shows how TRUE ST* NOVs are being slighted (no matter how small that population is). That is all.

Adam Ligon wrote:

I a not trying to sound mean or pick on you guys by any means. I just think you are making way to much of a big deal about all this, when in the end its all about having fun and becoming a better driver.

*groan*

I guess I don't get to have a grown-up discussion about a point that is not addressed much.

I already have that point of view (having fun). If you know me, or get the time to know me, that is what I am about. I am not making a *big deal* (at least not in my eyes), I am just pointing out something that doesn't seem to be quite right. I just wanted to have some intelligent banter about the subject and express my point of view, which happens to be very NEW to the area.

Since I am being told to "chill out" on the NOV, I will then. However, I think some people should just "chill out" on the TIR issue as well. It seems like there is always a lot of talk, and not too much action. I just wanted to see on the NOV situation if my point of view was worth taking into account. I am not trying to butt egos or strong-arm my point of view.

Thanks for your time, and I appreciate your point of view.

- Brian

Kevin Allen · **Joined:** Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:42 pm **Posts:** 3479

Brian, chill out.

Don't worry too much about trophies and pax indices for awhile. Christine ran NOV in an STS car using DSP pax, and never trophied. She still had a lot of fun. Now she's running open class, and still not trophying, but she's still having fun.

Quote:

I mean, so what if NOV finish 1-2-3-4-5 in PAX.... other than getting 'beat' by a NOV, what does that mean? Is there any PAX overall point championship or something?

I think you missed the meaning of the explanation. Novices aren't going to be even close to finishing 1-5 in overall pax. The ST cars were dominating NOV class, and that's why the pax system for NOV class was changed. Doesn't have anything to do with overall results. And yes, there is a PAX overall point championship - it's called the Top Gun award. :wink:

See you tomorrow!

Brian Herring · **Posted:** Sat Mar 20, 2004 12:45 pm

Kevin Allen wrote:

Brian, chill out.

Don't worry too much about trophies and pax indices for awhile. Christine ran NOV in an STS car using DSP pax, and never trophied. She still had a lot of fun. Now she's running open class, and still not trophying, but she's still having fun.

Quote:

I mean, so what if NOV finish 1-2-3-4-5 in PAX.... other than getting 'beat' by a NOV, what does that mean? Is there any PAX overall point championship or something?

I think you missed the meaning of the explanation. Novices aren't going to be even close to finishing 1-5 in overall pax. The ST cars were dominating NOV class, and that's why the pax system for NOV class was changed. Doesn't have anything to do with overall results. And yes, there is a PAX overall point championship - it's called the Top Gun award. :wink:

See you tomorrow!

Sir, yes sir!!

[Chill out mode = ON]

Man... I just wanted discuss

.

Thanks for tolerating me

.

- Brian

jimpastorius · **Posted:** Sat Mar 20, 2004 1:25 pm

Brian Herring wrote:

Sir, yes sir!!

[Chill out mode = ON]

Man... I just wanted discuss

.

Thanks for tolerating me

.

- Brian

A simple solution is to have your wife run in STX. Then you get to drive in the group, work together and she gets the STX index for the final PAX standings.

I am not sure how experienced you are. But you just need to relax and have fun. I can assure you, if you ain't having fun, your wife won't have fun and soon you will be watching F1 on Sunday afternoons.

I am not sure what the big deal with winning NOV is any ways. I never won it. I think the best I finished I had was second in my third event. I bet if you look back, 99% of the novice winners of the last 4 years, won't be there tomorrow. Maybe it is a curse

Chris Brown · **Posted:** Sat Mar 20, 2004 4:55 pm

Kevin Allen wrote:

Now she's running open class, and still not trophying, but she's still having fun.

i'm counting the days until she wipes the floor in STS.

one more thread morph for ya richard

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Sat Mar 20, 2004 8:20 pm

Not that it is a big deal to me personally, but I totally understand what Brian in saying

But what Brian mentions above is an example of someone wanting to run NOV. They are a novice and they are getting grief for trying to run NOV. The solutions are.... Run NOV, but get the shaft in PAX or run Open class. If you ask novices to run Open, then why even have a Novice class. Like Brian says, if they win, so what. They get bumped out of NOV.

And everyone keeps saying to "chill out", "this is for fun". If it is for fun, then why do we seem to take NOV so seriously. It is Novice class for crying out loud.

I think the solution is to ban R-tires from NOV and run NOV just live a JV TIR class OR run cars as classed and don't prevent those in ST classes from running NOV.

Diane Hall · **Posted:** Mon Mar 22, 2004 11:11 am

Richard - If you ban R tires from NOV, that doesn't solve the PAX issue with STS and STX. What we'd have to do is REQUIRE R tires in NOV to make PAX work there for STS or STX.

It may be time to return to the issue of what we allow in PAX classes and what we don't. When the ST class exclusion rule was created, there was only one class to exclude, STS, since STR was a R tire class. Of course, the simple solution would be to get rid of PAX classes all together, but that's another discussion.

Brian - Will your wife refuse to come back to a 2nd event if she doesn't win NOV because of her PAX? Is this your "issue", or hers? If she's not worried about having to use the ESP pax, then let it go. (BTW, the "L" in NOV, TIRE, or PRO makes NO difference at all since there's no difference between ESP and ESPL PAX values.)

At some point in your autocrossing/road-racing career, you are likely to feel that you are getting the shaft in some class you're running in. Whether it's a rule you think is stupid, a PAX you can't believe got set at a certain value, etc. You just have to deal with it the best you can and move on.

Mine right now... The wheels that came stock on my 92 Miata aren't legal this year for Spec Miata. Huh? Well, OK. I don't think it makes sense, but I either buy new wheels, or find someplace else to play (or I run illegal, which is not an option for me).

I don't have a PAX list anywhere handy... what's the difference we're talking about? STX = ____ vs. ESP = ____

Also, just to throw something else in there... what about Scott running the STS pax and Sally running in DS. They are choosing to do what Brian is feeling slighted about being forced to do. That proves it's all perspective. (Disclaimer: Not trying to pick on Scott and Sally at all. Personally I think it's a great idea for Scott.)

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