THSCC Forums

My brain works in strange ways. I just came up with this...

Based on:
and


Is that "start to run" at least one more than half, or "complete a run in" at least more than half?

What is the status of an event DNF (i.e. DNF'd every run) in terms of eligibility for year-end trophies? Obviously from the first quote it is no points, but is it an "enter and run" or not?

This becomes relevant at the end of the season under this scenario: If 5 events are required to be eligible for trophies, and a competitor has scored points in 4 events and DNFd the 5th, are they eligible?

(It's pretty clear that DNS and DNW count as if you'd never showed up in the first place. This only applies to DNF.)

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Martyn Wheeler
AXing Kit's '05 Mazda 3, #29 HStock
(when The Gonzo Symphonic allows)

5 DNF's in one day? I'm sure it's happened, but wow. Anyone guilty of this?

My $.02 is that it should count if it wasn't a reckless display of cone carnage.

IMHO, and that's all it is, "run" is both a verb and a noun. In 7.3 it is being used as a noun. In your subsequent quote, it is a verb. I know it sounds like I'm being uber-pedantic, but I think it's relevant. 7.3 is talking about individual "runs" and how they are scored. That other quote is really talking about "competing" when it says "run", and IMHO, a competitor that shows up, takes runs, and happens to not get a score on those runs has still *competed* in the event, even if they lost horribly due to errors.

One could probably argue that entering and showing up but having all DNS's shouldn't count, but IMHO if you pay your money AND you actually show up, you should get credit for it toward points. Especially since you didn't actually GET points. I mean you definitely *tried* to get points, and that's what the quote about year end trophies is trying to enforce. You gotta attempt more than half.

(And I can totally see the DNS thing both ways, but the DNF one seems pretty clear to *me* that you should get credit for the event.)


--Donnie

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My Blog

What he said.

In short, if you pay your dues, pay your entry fees, and at least try, you WILL get a trophy at the end of the year**. You don't even have to be good.

**unless you run novice class, since we kick folks out of it when they get good

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Dustin Fredrickson
-- I'm a nobody --

I hope we're not considering changing rule 7.3. Would we actually award minimal points (1?) for mere attendance? What is there are 8 people in the class that day, and one DNF/DNS's all runs. Would he/she get the same number of points as the person who finished 7th, but actually had timed runs? That could make a difference at the end of the year.

I can see no excuse for all DNFs. Let's say you DNF your first two runs, and you don't know why. (Happened to me once) GET SOME HELP. Get another driver to ride with you on your next run with instructions to help you find your mistake. (That's what I did, and she told me right after I blew by the mystery gate for my 3rd DNF ... but at least I knew in time for run 4)


Old war story about DNFs:
I chaired my first NCAC event at NC Motor Speedway (We ran parts of the infield course and parts of the oval. Only one car was destroyed - a heavily modified Vega that deserved to hit that fence pole.) Anyway, in the last heat a very agitated lady appeared at the T&S table and complained that the awful courseworkers had DNF'ed her husband on all of his runs. She went on to say that they had left their home in WVa at midnight to make it to the event, and it just wasn't fair to DNF someone who made such an effort to attend the event. Blah Blah Blah

Luckily, then-President Kurt Spitzner was at the table with me. He smiled and nodded, then repeated "this is an amateur event with unpaid courseworkers, and I'm sorry about your husband's situation, but there's nothing I can do about it" four or five times. She finally stormed off. Kurt observed: "It's not so important that they all go away happy, just that they go away". Harsh, but having a metallic-prune Gremlin as your daily driver/autox/track car gives you a certain perspective about others' little problems.

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Art McDonald
Premier Amateur #518
2008 Dishman Cup
Pivot Cone Snob

Rodney is a waxer (but in a good way)

No, I was actually commenting more on the other rule pertaining to "eligibility for a trophy". 7.3 relates to how many points you get to count towards that trophy, which is a different argument. Besides, changing rules requires work, and stuff.

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Dustin Fredrickson
-- I'm a nobody --

I can only offer one. The first event this year at Laurinburg, my brother and I were competing as any good sibling rivalry should. On his last run he got me by a few tenths of a second. Fully expecting him to win we were shocked at the awards tent when my name was called as first place. They never said anything about DNF's at the end of his run, but T&S had him down for 4 DNF's. We were completely clueless he needed any help.

We decided from then on out half of our runs we will ride with each other to help each other so that wouldn't happen again.

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2005 Mazda RX8 STX 11

NCR Solo Chair & Cape Fear Chapter Coordinator
http://www.ncrscca.com

Funny story -- when I came out of autox retirement running my first event in 15 years or so at the non-points event at the end of 2005, I was pulled to autox by Jackie (16 at the time) wanting to learn what this is all about. She had been to the teen driving school at the Performance Center and was anxious to try autox having heard my stories over the years and all.

Well, I never heard any announcements, and nobody said anything to us about my DNFs. We spent the whole day mainly working on her driving (and me trying to teach her how to make the stupid automatic in the 850R respond -- she switched to the E46 with proper manual from the next event onward). Finally on my 6th run through the course, just as we go blasting by a gate way off to the right in the M5, she casually mentions, "shouldn't you be going through that gate over there?" Zooooom by goes that gate off to my right for the 6th time in a row!

I was like ugh, ugh, damn!! She follows that up with "I think you've been missing it all day long". I knew at that point I really needed to work on student-teacher communication. I'm sure she just chalked it up as yet another learning event a child has that their parent is perhaps a partial (total?) quack at times.

So on the 7th run that day, I actually didn't DNF thus making my first timed run with THSCC since 1984 actually valid.

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Current stable:
2019 BMW M2 Competition slicktop 6MT
2011 BMW M3 sedan slicktop 6MT
2007 BMW 328i wagon (slushbox for now)
1975 CanAm 125MX2

Pedantic? Had to look that one up. Thanks, Martyn - I've already learned something new today. BTW, is it legal in Stock class to use tyres in place of tires?

Funny, I also did a double-take when I first read the original post - since when do we award a competitor 7.3 points for completing at least one run?

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Keith Q.
2008 Top Gun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmX8XuZ_DCo&NR=1

same here....

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Rodney

'08 Bullitt mustang, CAM 7
Autox VP '09-'10, President '11-'12, interim President 2nd half of ‘14
proud recipient of the Bowie Grey service award '12
Now just a guy driving a mustang....

I wish there was a service that showed popularity of words over time. I have noticed more and more people using "pedantic" over the past year or so. It's popularity seems to be on the rise!

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Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

Martyn,

I would not describe that as a pedantic point. After all, the use of that word has more of a pejorative/ostentacious pheel to it (edit: and you don't come across like that)..perhaps picayune or persnickety?

{puts down his dusty thesaurus}

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Steve Carter
1972 Datsun 240Z-- resto pics at http://picasaweb.google.com/srcartermd
2007 GPW Honda S2000-- STR 86

How did I know Steve was going to reply to this thread with a perfectly smart ass reply like this

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2011/2012 Autox VP
2013/2014.5 President
2013 Top Gun

2015 Fit

22R-EC => 4G63 => D16Y7 + D16Y8 => EJ255 + K24Z2 => K20Z3 + K24Z2 => K24Z2 + M54 => L15B

Just kidding, of course....

"Said the scorpion to the frog 'I cannot help myself--it's my nature.'"


http://allaboutfrogs.org/stories/scorpion.html

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Steve Carter
1972 Datsun 240Z-- resto pics at http://picasaweb.google.com/srcartermd
2007 GPW Honda S2000-- STR 86

I expected (and hoped) the correct answer to be the one Dustin gave. It seems the fairest and most sensible to me too.

Basically, if you cross the line at the start of one run, you count as showing up. So if your car breaks the differential on your first launch and rolls gently through the start line, then you pack up and go home in disgust, it still counts as making a run. Or if you unwittingly miss the same gate every time through the course, which has happened surprisingly often with some tricky courses in the past.

It was actually the Byers at the first event that triggered this. I knew they'd both been there because I had to reclass them as FSP from DSP. I then noticed that my program had flagged John as having run one more than half (1+(2/2) = 2, at this point in the season) but not Bobby.

What I'll do is change my program to recognize DNF results and award them 0 (zero) points for that event rather than award them none at all. It's a subtle difference but could be important for eligibility.

As a side note, runs in NOV count for eligibility even though there is no YLN points, so if a NOV runs 4 events and wins the last, and runs one event in open, they're still eligible for a year end trophy in that open class. (My program already does that. It tracks NOV points, just doesn't print them out.)


While I'm rocking the boat the rules on the website on NOV year long points and when to transition to open are a little inconsistent in wording and application. The rules in one place say we are still running YLN (and have said so ever since we dropped it), while at events we say "welcome to open" to everyone who gets a trophy in NOV, while at one point in the rules it says it takes two finishes in the top three to kick you up.

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Martyn Wheeler
AXing Kit's '05 Mazda 3, #29 HStock
(when The Gonzo Symphonic allows)