ST* in TIR?

JamesShort · **Posted:** Tue Jan 05, 2010 1:41 pm

I'm new to autox but looking at the past 2009 results there have been times where there were ST,STS, STU etc running in the TIR category. I thought that ST* requires street tires anyway, so is this right? Is it more about do you want to run in 'open' ST* and possibly only have one other person to run against or do you want more competition in the PAX modified TIR category? Just wondering, thanks.

Aaron Buckley · **Posted:** Tue Jan 05, 2010 2:17 pm

JamesShort wrote:

I'm new to autox but looking at the past 2009 results there have been times where there were ST,STS, STU etc running in the TIR category. I thought that ST* requires street tires anyway, so is this right? Is it more about do you want to run in 'open' ST* and possibly only have one other person to run against or do you want more competition in the PAX modified TIR category? Just wondering, thanks.

You can't run ST* classes in TIR, because ST* PAX already factors in the use of street tires. - AB

JamesShort · **Posted:** Tue Jan 05, 2010 2:33 pm

Aaron Buckley wrote:

JamesShort wrote:

I'm new to autox but looking at the past 2009 results there have been times where there were ST,STS, STU etc running in the TIR category. I thought that ST* requires street tires anyway, so is this right? Is it more about do you want to run in 'open' ST* and possibly only have one other person to run against or do you want more competition in the PAX modified TIR category? Just wondering, thanks.

You can't run ST* classes in TIR, because ST* PAX already factors in the use of street tires. - AB

Following that logic, *S and *SP also factor in that you could be on r comps. The PAX modifier used in TIR isn't any different because you are running in TIR. As in if I ran (last year) in TIR-DS on street tires, my best raw would be multiplied by .819 and compared to the field of entrants in TIR and if I ran in X-DS on r-comps, my best raw time would be multiplied by .819 and compared to the entrants in X. Am I missing something?

EDIT: I think I get it. So technically if the suspension/drivetrain allowances in ST* were allowed PLUS the use of r comps, then the ST* PAX modifiers would probably be higher, where as the *S and *SP already have that factored in, so that would give ST* the advantage when being compared to a field of *S and *SP folks running street tires.

Matt McGrain · **Posted:** Tue Jan 05, 2010 2:49 pm

JamesShort wrote:

EDIT: I think I get it. So technically if the suspension/drivetrain allowances in ST* were allowed PLUS the use of r comps, then the ST* PAX modifiers would probably be higher, where as the *S and *SP already have that factored in, so that would give ST* the advantage when being compared to a field of *S and *SP folks running street tires.

Almost... But, you can't have r-comps in ST* classes. You are right about the lower pax in ST* because it's generally lower than any street prepared car.

JamesShort · **Posted:** Tue Jan 05, 2010 2:58 pm

Matt McGrain wrote:

JamesShort wrote:

EDIT: I think I get it. So technically if the suspension/drivetrain allowances in ST* were allowed PLUS the use of r comps, then the ST* PAX modifiers would probably be higher, where as the *S and *SP already have that factored in, so that would give ST* the advantage when being compared to a field of *S and *SP folks running street tires.

Almost... But, you can't have r-comps in ST* classes. You are right about the lower pax in ST* because it's generally lower than any street prepared car.

Yeah, I know you can't have r comps in ST*. Hence if you could, then the PAX numbers for ST* would be higher than they currently are since you are limited to street tires and therefore if you put them in a PAX modified category against *S and *SP, where their PAX modifiers assume that r comps could be used (but aren't in the case of the TIR category) then the ST* have a clear advantage. Basically the *S and *SP PAXes should be dropped a bit if they are running in a TIR category against people with ST* prepped cars. Sorry, just trying to sort out the logic, but I see why ST* should not be running in TIR. Thanks.

Dustin Fredrickson · **Posted:** Tue Jan 05, 2010 3:29 pm

JamesShort wrote:

Matt McGrain wrote:

JamesShort wrote:

EDIT: I think I get it. So technically if the suspension/drivetrain allowances in ST* were allowed PLUS the use of r comps, then the ST* PAX modifiers would probably be higher, where as the *S and *SP already have that factored in, so that would give ST* the advantage when being compared to a field of *S and *SP folks running street tires.

Almost... But, you can't have r-comps in ST* classes. You are right about the lower pax in ST* because it's generally lower than any street prepared car.

Yeah, I know you can't have r comps in ST*. Hence if you could, then the PAX numbers for ST* would be higher than they currently are since you are limited to street tires and therefore if you put them in a PAX modified category against *S and *SP, where their PAX modifiers assume that r comps could be used (but aren't in the case of the TIR category) then the ST* have a clear advantage. Basically the *S and *SP PAXes should be dropped a bit if they are running in a TIR category against people with ST* prepped cars. Sorry, just trying to sort out the logic, but I see why ST* should not be running in TIR. Thanks.

Fundamentally, TIR class cars are PAX competitive only with other TIR class cars, not with open classes -- just depends on where you're looking to compare yourself. If you intend to compete within class, TIR is great and offers a large class of competitors. If your goal is to compete in the Top Overall Pax list, then you probably want to prep your car to one of the "standard" SCCA classes and run there.

JamesShort · **Posted:** Tue Jan 05, 2010 3:43 pm

Dustin Fredrickson wrote:

Fundamentally, TIR class cars are PAX competitive only with other TIR class cars, not with open classes -- just depends on where you're looking to compare yourself. If you intend to compete within class, TIR is great and offers a large class of competitors. If your goal is to compete in the Top Overall Pax list, then you probably want to prep your car to one of the "standard" SCCA classes and run there.

I understand. I'm not even running a ST* class, but I was just wondering why a few ST* competed in TIR in 2009. Must have been mistakes. Thanks.

BriceJohnson · **Joined:** Thu Apr 13, 2006 7:33 am **Posts:** 2230

Pax sucks

IBTL?

In all seriousness, go ahead and run in your open class is my recommendation. I went through this a while back and realized that I'd MUCH prefer to run an underprepped car in my class and be able to run straight up against them than to have a calculator with me trying to figure out if I was winning or not. You can always look at the end of the day and see where you WOULD have finished. To me, the only reason to run TIR is if you aren't going to have any regular competitors in your open class (which I DOUBT will be the case in D-stock).

If you choose to run TIR though, thats cool, it is a healthy and competitive class.

Keith Quistorff · **Posted:** Wed Jan 06, 2010 10:21 am

BriceJohnson wrote:

Pax sucks

IBTL?

In all seriousness, go ahead and run in your open class is my recommendation. I went through this a while back and realized that I'd MUCH prefer to run an underprepped car in my class and be able to run straight up against them than to have a calculator with me trying to figure out if I was winning or not. You can always look at the end of the day and see where you WOULD have finished. To me, the only reason to run TIR is if you aren't going to have any regular competitors in your open class (which I DOUBT will be the case in D-stock).

If you choose to run TIR though, thats cool, it is a healthy and competitive class.

While Brice's recommendation makes perfect sense in his case (driving a ST prepped car, which would get him essentially an SP PAX in TIR class), it would not be my recommendation for anyone driving a non-ST (i.e. Stock, SP, etc.) class prepped car.

Being a DS class competitor, I wouldn't recommend showing up on street tires and running in DS open class unless you just don't care about being competitive in class. Running street tires against others on R comps in the same class is a huge disadvantage that's extremly tough to overcome with driving skills alone. Assuming everything else is equal, even with the fastest street tires (vs. fastest R comps), you're probably looking at ~1.5 - 2 second disadvantage on a 60 second course.

Whether you run street tires in DS (open) or TIR class, your PAX result will be identical, so there's no 'advantage' to running in DS open on street tires. The advantages to running in TIR class are (a) significantly more competitors in class and (b) a reasonable correlation between class results and driving skill.

BriceJohnson · **Joined:** Thu Apr 13, 2006 7:33 am **Posts:** 2230

true, I forgot that Keith would be in D-stock to beat up on you. . .

However, in just about any class, if you've got a great driver, in a car thats prepped well, you're gonna get whooped, plain and simple unless you yourself are ALSO a great driver in a well prepped car. When Dave O'Maley shows up and runs open ST in his civic, I don't have a shot either.

JamesShort · **Posted:** Wed Jan 06, 2010 10:45 am

The other thing too is that I want to get a year or so of experience on street tires regardless before I get some Hoosiers or V710s as not to mask mistakes or things that I could improve upon that not-so-sticky tires would expose. Even on this very day, if I threw some r comps on the WRX, that I'd run better times compared to my street tires, but I'm not too concerned with that right now, want to become a better driver first

. I need to keep my hands on the wheel apparently....Rob L. rode with me on my first event (Danville late last year) and during the 180 deg turn around (more like 220 deg) I kept one hand on the wheel and grabbed the o-shit handle on the door.....I don't remember doing it, but I'm sure it happened (at the Subaru challenge, I told my passenger to pay attention to if I do that, and he said I did not

). Or I frequently catch myself overdriving into a turn and exiting a) slowly and b) out of boost....so I know I need to brake earlier. Anyway, enough rambling.

JamesShort · **Posted:** Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:02 am

Quote:

While Brice's recommendation makes perfect sense in his case (driving a ST prepped car, which would get him essentially an SP PAX in TIR class), it would not be my recommendation for anyone driving a non-ST (i.e. Stock, SP, etc.) class prepped car.

I'm not so sure about that. I think an ST* car has an advantage PAX-wise in the TIR category compared to the *S and *SP cars, also in TIR. To use 2009 numbers:

DS: .819
ST: .818

So factored into the DS .819 is the fact that you can be running on r comps, so if you enter in DS-TIR then you are still getting the .819 PAX modifier but you are not maxed out for the class that that PAX number correlates to. So when putting a DS car in a TIR category and keeping the same PAX, compared to other *S and *SP cars, then this differential for the tires is probably the same so it's pretty fair. Apples to apples.

However, if you have ST* cars in the mix, their default open PAX already assumes they are on street tires. So compared to the *S and *SP cars if you are comparing a ST-TIR and DS-TIR, the ST car should have a higher PAX, or more intuitively, the DS car should have a lower PAX to basically remove the r comp portion of the PAX. Again, if there is no ST* in the TIR category (which I found on the THSCC website should be the case), then it does matter since all *S and *SP PAX equally assume that you COULD be on r comps, but in the case of running TIR, you are not.

Anyway, are you running with r compounds in DS? How are you liking the 135? I drove one about 3 months ago and it had the flattest powerband of any turbo car I've driven....no lag at all! Granted the turbos are about the size of a fist so that's to be expected

.

steve remchak · **Posted:** Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:56 am

year long novice class. :thumbsup:

IBTL

JamesShort · **Posted:** Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:46 pm

steve remchak wrote:

year long novice class. :thumbsup:

IBTL

What does that mean? TIR is year long novice?

BriceJohnson · **Joined:** Thu Apr 13, 2006 7:33 am **Posts:** 2230

its a long standing debate on these forums as to whether TIR should exist. Many claim its a second tier novice class. Others (like myself, a long time ago) claim its a place for stock cars to race on street tires. The reason my post had a "deadhorse" smiley is b/c that topic has been tread over a lot here.

I think the class has merit, I just wonder how well I would have developed as a driver had I kept my car stock and run HS TIR. Sure I would have won more trophies that way than running my underprepped ST car and gettting whooped for several years, but in the end, I enjoyed competing against a healthy class of competitiors and always knowing where the bar was in class. With a PAX class, you never really know who's winning until the final results and even then, you never really know whether it was b/c the course favored a particular class of car or not. I don't care THAT strongly one way or another, but generally feel like I made the right call just focusing on improving for my first couple years doing this, and not so much on winning trophies. Admittedly, part of my decision though came from just personally not wanting to keep my car stock (wanted to change to wider wheels, intake, and add rear sway bar).

Also, your comparison of DS pax to ST doesn't make a big difference, given that very few DS cars actually qualify for ST. ST cars are generally GS and HS cars before being modified. Your car would be STU if I'm not mistaken.

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