THSCC Forums

Yes, I would go to STU.

The class could have been HS to ST and the point would have been the same. Stock class allows for R comps and that is taken into account in the PAX fraction. ST* does not allow R comps. If that was the only difference between to the two classes, then HS would have a higher PAX fraction. That is not the case because ST allows for all the fun wheel and suspension mods. So let's say there was an explicit new category for all the stock classes with it's own defined PAX fractions: AS-TIR, BS-TIR etc . The pax fraction for AS would be greater than AS-TIR and likewise for the others. Let's also assume the same for street prepared ASP > ASP-TIR

So with those hypothetical classes, if a club has a TIR paxed category that allowed ST, STS, STR, STU, then those cars would use the standard PAX fraction as defined in literature and the stock/sp cars would use their AS-TIR, or ASP-TIR fraction, which is lower than the non TIR pax fraction due to the removal of r comps from the allowable modifications.

Again, non of this matters since ST* should not run in TIR anyway, but the point is, if they were to be able to run in TIR, then they'd have the advantage to their stock counterparts hence the reason I asked, but now that I read more through the THSCC classing for TIR, it says that ST* should not be in TIR and therefore those few instances I saw in the results must have been mistakes.

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2011/2012 Autox VP
2013/2014.5 President
2013 Top Gun

2015 Fit

22R-EC => 4G63 => D16Y7 + D16Y8 => EJ255 + K24Z2 => K20Z3 + K24Z2 => K24Z2 + M54 => L15B

I did not run in Tire after my novice year. I chose to run in the class that I planned to run in long term. My reasons for doing this was to run against the same people every time so that I could bench mark my times, secondly, you will learn how to best set up your car for that class. I ran street tires in CS and I got my butt whooped. I did get to know my competators. Luckily, they felt sorry for me, rode with me, told me how to improve my driving style and how to set up my car. Your competition is what makes you good. The people in CS that felt so unthreatened by me that they gave me a lot of tips are Dustin Fredricksen, Eric Peteson, Charlie Monroe, and Mike Whitney. Until your driving skills and car setup come together, you are just plain going to loose unless you have no competition. When I went to R componds the next year, my second outing was a top ten and I have been doing ok since. BTW, R comps are not so expensive, wear out a set of street tires every 6k miles vs wearing out a set of 710s and street tires every 16K miles. The cost is the same or less. The only downer to R comps is changing back to street tires at the end of the day.

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Mike Miller
AutoX VP 2016/2017
Just a C Stock Miata DD
Mazda Speed 3 Family Car
Corvette Z06 Toy

Without telling war stories from the 70's (before many of you were born), I started by running the best tires possible on two different Datsun Z's against FAST competition. Mine in Stock and the other in the equivalent of ST but on SLICKS. There were two sanctioning bodies with their own events and rules. Did well in both and went on to win Nationals in Stock the next year. If you run good tires (i.e. new, not dead used ones) you will be able to judge where you are in development since MOST of the time difference in Stock is driver and tires. Suspension, etc. is a much smaller component.

Dick (has been fast autocrosser)

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Dick Rasmussen

FS 50 2018 Mustang GT

That makes a lot of sense. Even if I run open DS, I still want to get at least a year under my belt on street tires, not due to the cost, but due to the better driving skills you can attain making mistakes on less grippy tires that will (ideally) not carry over and get 'masked' by r comps.

Maybe I can convince Steven Carter to run open DS too so I don't always get 2nd out of 2 drivers to Keith .

Well I didn't quite have a 'novice year'. I ran my first two autox events (ever) with THSCC (last 2 of 2009) and got 1st both times in NOV (didn't know I shouldn't run NOV the 2nd time...oops ). My 2nd event actually placed me 1st in TIR as well. At the Triad event I did, I got 5th in TIR, I got 2nd at the Subaru challenge in Charlotte in open DS (1st was only car on r comps) and 1st in TIR at the CCR autox the day after. Anyway, seemed an obvious next step to go to TIR, but you guys have me thinking. Is Keith the only one that runs open DS consistently in the club?

_________________
2011/2012 Autox VP
2013/2014.5 President
2013 Top Gun

2015 Fit

22R-EC => 4G63 => D16Y7 + D16Y8 => EJ255 + K24Z2 => K20Z3 + K24Z2 => K24Z2 + M54 => L15B

Because it feels better to be second place out of a three car field than last place out of two cars? I know I'm not that good a driver, but geez...

Why would I compete in DS on street tires knowing that I'm (a) at a driver experience disadvantage and (b) at a 1.5 sec/60sec disadvantage when going up against cars on R-comps? I understand the rationale that Mike said above, but to me there's no need to self-relegate to last place when a perfectly good, large field class like TIR exists. While typically introverted I have enjoyed meeting folks in other classes, and TIR provides that as well.

Besides, one can always cross-compare after the event to see how one would have done within their respective class.

To each their own, of course--but for me until I'm on even ground with R-comps I'll be happy to play in TIR.

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Steve Carter
1972 Datsun 240Z-- resto pics at http://picasaweb.google.com/srcartermd
2007 GPW Honda S2000-- STR 86

I did not imply that at all! . In both those THSCC events you would have been ahead of me and in 1st but for one or two cones (as in your best base time minus the cone penalty would have handily beat mine). Anyway, it think I'll probably still do TIR at least next year.

Mentally I think of it this way:

As Steve mentioned, I can always take my raw and compare it to the open DS for reference, however there isn't the urge to think 'well if I only negotiated that slalom a hair better, I would be ahead of that car' when comparing to the open cars on r comps.

In TIR, in my opinion, if there is a car that squeezed by me (or whoever) and you can analyze your previous runs for places in the course to improve upon, there a decent chance you can make back ground. I don't see that possibility in open class while running street tires. It's more a game of 'let's minimize how much I loose by' rather that the other way around.

_________________
2011/2012 Autox VP
2013/2014.5 President
2013 Top Gun

2015 Fit

22R-EC => 4G63 => D16Y7 + D16Y8 => EJ255 + K24Z2 => K20Z3 + K24Z2 => K24Z2 + M54 => L15B

Let me clarify - what I meant by my statement above was this - most of the allowable mods for ST classed cars also fit the SP ruleset, and SP is designed around using R comps, just like the rest of the classes allowed to compete in TIR. So, since ST classes are not allowed in TIR class (for the reason discussed extensively in this thread), an ST prepped car would typically end up going into TIR class as an SP car (with the applicable SP PAX index).



Yes, I ran both V710's and A6's in DS on my co-driver's 135i for most of the '09 season, except I ran my 330i (on A6's in DS) at the last few events. The 135i is a great car, indeed - I love it. Oddly, it didn't seem to make any significant difference in my PAX results, though, which tells me the extra power and better diff in the 135i is being overshadowed by my lack of driving skills.

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Keith Q.
2008 Top Gun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmX8XuZ_DCo&NR=1

Keith,

On equal tires, are you saying that the ZHP is basically similar to the 135i on the courses you've been on? That one event last year when Jackie had the ZHP home from college, I was about 0.6 seconds behind you in the 135i on a 40-something second course. I was on BFG R1s, and I think you were on V710s -- can't recall. I wonder how close these two cars really are on the same tires? Clearly one would think that a wide-open course with some long straights would favor the 135? Remember that ZHP-ZHP battle we had at Greenville the year before last? I wonder how the 135 would have done on that tight course versus the ZHP.

Chuck

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Current stable:
2019 BMW M2 Competition slicktop 6MT
2011 BMW M3 sedan slicktop 6MT
2007 BMW 328i wagon (slushbox for now)
1975 CanAm 125MX2

Chuck,

I remember - that was the Danville event in June, and you're correct - I was on 245/35/18 Kumho V710's.

I agree - a course with long straights should favor the 135i over the ZHP due to the large difference in power. But any course should favor the 135i since it weighs about the same as a ZHP and also has a pretty functional LSD. I actually think the bigger advantage to the 135i is on courses that require hard acceleration exiting tight elements - where the ZHP spins the inside rear tire, the 135i rear diff hooks up fine, even with the extra HP. For me, the worst case scenario for the ZHP is a course with a long sweeping turn from the start line to the first braking zone (this is typical of Sanford) - you have to accelerate softly for a long time in the ZHP (or light up the inside rear and lose lots of time).

Keith

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Keith Q.
2008 Top Gun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmX8XuZ_DCo&NR=1

If you stick to this doctrine for at least a few more events, you'll only be quicker when you do finally toss the r-comps on a spare set of wheels.

-Matt

...or you could take the opposite theory on the r-comps...

Since you're gonna get 50 runs all year long, at best. Every run counts. Get your car right to the edge of setup for its class.

Take those street tires and drive to your nearest AX/Solo school and get pre-season seat time and instruction with street tires. 2 days of that and you'll have 50 runs. A seasons worth of seat time. Then slap on those Hoosiers for points season and git-r-done...

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http://www.greywinds.com

I agree with what Graham said!!!

If you want to learn how to drive with less traction, use street tires. If you want to learn how to drive with more traction use R comps or do what I did which was alternate events between a street tire stock car and a racing slick lower stiffer car. The hard part was driving the racing slick car at its higher limits. Fortunately I would then try to drive the street tire car as fast as the race tire car (good thing I'm a conservative driver). Remember, on R tires or even in my CMod on slicks, you need to get the car/tire to its limits. My biggest problem for my whole career has been learning the car's limits on sticky tires. Believe me you can learn car control, threshold braking, FAST steering wheel movement for transitions and so on with R tires and slicks.

If you choose street tires, at least go with one of the most competitive ST legal tires. Don't use everyday or OEM's.

Dick (obviously opinionated)

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Dick Rasmussen

FS 50 2018 Mustang GT

Echoing Graham and Dick's reply and adding that you should realize the car will drive completely differently with V710/A6 tires as opposed to street tires. The biggest difference in the balance of the car is usually in transitional periods where the street tire car will more easily rotate. Going from street tires on my ZHP (and very good ones) to race tires changes the car from a fine handling, relatively easy to rotate blast to drive to one with a much more stuck tail, prone to understeer much more, etc. It takes a completely different "style" of driving to extract the best time from the car depending on the r-comp/street tire selection.

As Graham said, finding a SoloPro or Evolution school to do early in the season will net you a ton of seat time in addition to creating good habits you can practice improving. Highly recommended.

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Current stable:
2019 BMW M2 Competition slicktop 6MT
2011 BMW M3 sedan slicktop 6MT
2007 BMW 328i wagon (slushbox for now)
1975 CanAm 125MX2

Chuck’s comments on Rcomps are very accurate. R comps make a fun car to drive into a pushy car. The other problem is relearning your braking points in R comps. Pushy cars require that you to acquire finesse applying brakes. Trail braking allows one to plant the front tires whiles at the same time unloading the rear tires. If you steer carefully, smoothly, whiles doing this, then the rear of the car will kick out a bit. If you do this right, then you can squeeze on the throttle a little earlier. If you do it wrong, you will understeer badly or spin. Trial braking is one of the skills that are taught in schools like Pro Solo or Evo. For me it did not come naturally. When ProSolo instructor, Tim Aro, was driving my car in the rain he was doing this. I was amazed at how fast he could go in the rain. The other thing that they will teach you is how to place your car on the course and how to load the tires and transition the weight of the car to get most grip out of them. Most of the better drivers in our club have been through a Pro Solo or Evo driving school. The instructors got me to try things that I would never have done on my own.

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Mike Miller
AutoX VP 2016/2017
Just a C Stock Miata DD
Mazda Speed 3 Family Car
Corvette Z06 Toy