Places that can extract a broken manifold stud?

MikeWhitney · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm **Posts:** 4724

Been R&R'ing a leaking exhaust manifold on my 2005 Durango (5.7l V8) and have hit a wall.

Anyone have experience with a machine shop that can successfully extract a flush broken exhaust manifold stud from an aluminum cylinder head? I was able to successfully weld nuts and bolts onto three other broken studs and turn them out, but one is STUCK in there despite three attempts to weld something onto it. Last attempt sheared it flush with the surface, no chance of welding anything onto it. So it's time to pull the head.

I have heard of EDM being used, and I'm hoping to retain the original head threads if possible. If I have to go helicoil, I'd prefer to use a shop that's got a lot of experience with it, since this motor seems to really cook the manifolds under heavy towing.

Any suggestions?

RodneyWright · **Posted:** Thu Oct 10, 2013 7:39 am

ouch... What happened in the first place to have to remove the manifold?

There's an old school machine shop near me, Loop Road auto parts on Yeargan Rd off of hiway 70 in Garner.

http://www.looproadauto.com/

They've done some work for me in the past, so I'm assuming they can help you. Give 'em a buzz....

Jordan Normark · **Posted:** Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:17 am

Mike, any chance of drilling a hole in the middle of the stud? I have had success with this before, either drilling it to the point where you can get a screw extractor in there, or where the only thing remaining are the threads that you can fish out and re-tap the hole. Just a thought before pulling the head.

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:40 am

If you find a good solution Mike please share when done. Particularly if you find someone local who does EDM and especially if they have a portable EDM setup. I don't have a need today, but it would be handle to know who to call in the future.

Richard

JamesShort · **Posted:** Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:12 am

I was thinking that Jordan's method might work if you can find a left hand tap and thread a bolt in all the way and use a lot of heat and PB blaster with an impact gun.

MikeWhitney · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm **Posts:** 4724

Jordan Normark wrote:

Mike, any chance of drilling a hole in the middle of the stud? I have had success with this before, either drilling it to the point where you can get a screw extractor in there, or where the only thing remaining are the threads that you can fish out and re-tap the hole. Just a thought before pulling the head.

Not with the head in the car, the frame rails are in the way of getting a straight shot with a drill. If I don't find a shop who looks at it and says "no problem", I'll have a go at drilling it out myself. I've done it before with a broken trans bellhousing bolt on a Subaru. After reading online about EDM and machine shops, it sounds like I'm just as likely to have a successful result myself by drilling it out on the bench and fishing out the threads.

I'll likely skip the left-hand bits / extractors and just use regular bits going up in size. In my experience with a bolt like this which is absolutely siezed at the threads, there is no chance of success using an extractor. I have snapped several 5/16" bolts welded onto this stud already, it's stuck in there.

DickRasmussen · **Posted:** Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:42 am

Jordan Normark wrote:

Mike, any chance of drilling a hole in the middle of the stud? I have had success with this before, either drilling it to the point where you can get a screw extractor in there, or where the only thing remaining are the threads that you can fish out and re-tap the hole. Just a thought before pulling the head.

A good mobile mechanic did the drill/tap/helicoil on our 88 Dodge van (iron heads) in the van this Spring (one of the few studs with adequate access). Agree about don't risk breaking an extractor in the stud. If it doesn't come out easily give up and start drilling is what he said and what I've heard over the years from other pros. In our case one or more of the stud holes went into the water jacket either originally or from previous stud replacement work but sealant handles that just fine. He didn't do anything I didn't "know" how do do but I was willing to pay for his experience. :lol:

Note: The manifold itself was eroded enough to be the cause of the gasket leaking. The head surface was fine. Dorman sells replacements for ours through Advance Auto, etc. for much less than OEM. Made in China, of course, but so far so good.

MikeWhitney · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm **Posts:** 4724

Hey Dick, can you shoot me the guy's name and number? If he's got some creative drilling tools, he might have a chance at getting access.

DickRasmussen · **Posted:** Thu Oct 10, 2013 3:48 pm

MikeWhitney wrote:

Hey Dick, can you shoot me the guy's name and number? If he's got some creative drilling tools, he might have a chance at getting access.

Mike,

I don't know if he has "creative" drilling tools or not since I think it was straight shot in to ours. Won't hurt to ask though.

On-Site Automotive

http://on-site-automotive.com/

Adam is the owner/mechanic and his wife is the "billing/contact" person.

(919) 758-9960

Dick

Recommended by our dentist whose son worked for him for awhile before going back to college/grad school.

Sometimes you need to follow up with him but he is pretty good in that regard. He isn't "cheap" but not "over priced" either as far as I can tell. Plus for our camper van it is really hard to find a shop that will work on a 25 year old vehicle that is trustworthy. Been there too many times. He works on ours in the driveway, of course.

MikeWhitney · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm **Posts:** 4724

Well I decided to take another crack at it tonight before pulling the head and .... Success!!!

The nice thing about working on an Al head is that there is virtually no concerns about damaging the head while welding. The weld wire just bounces off aluminum. Had the epiphany that I could just weld a bump on top of the flush broken bolt which would give me enough area to weld a nut on.

Here's what it looked like:

Based on some past experiences, I suspected that a bunch of red-hot welding applications could eventually break the corrosion. Yesterday I had only done 3 weld-break cycles. Took another 4 on one bolt, and a full 7 on the other one. Cherry-red hot every time eventually kicked the corrosion's ass.

Here's a pic of the various stuff I welded on and broke until the stud eventually loosened up. The broken studs are on the left, and an approximate progression of welded and broken nuts and bolts follow, culminating with the extracted stud. On the lower one, the magic bullet was using a much bigger nut which allowed more room for the weld to penetrate down the nut threads.

Hope this helps someone!

JohnByers · **Posted:** Fri Oct 11, 2013 6:33 am

Nice job!

Jordan Normark · **Posted:** Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:10 am

Clever! DIY is so much more rewarding :thumbsup:

DickRasmussen · **Posted:** Fri Oct 11, 2013 11:21 am

Mike - Outstanding job. Great to have the tools (welder), skills, and persistence to pull this off!

I'm disappointed that a modern engine with relatively speaking "lots of space around the engine" would break manifold studs like old engines frequently did/do in RV's and vans. Any idea how to prevent the problem and which engines, if any, do NOT have the problem from the factory?

Thanks,

Dick

MikeWhitney · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm **Posts:** 4724

DickRasmussen wrote:

Mike - Outstanding job. Great to have the tools (welder), skills, and persistence to pull this off!

I'm disappointed that a modern engine with relatively speaking "lots of space around the engine" would break manifold studs like old engines frequently did/do in RV's and vans. Any idea how to prevent the problem and which engines, if any, do NOT have the problem from the factory?

Thanks,

Dick

It's more of a duty cycle thing ... these engines are prone to warping exhaust manifolds when subjected to heavy towing loads (I have been dragging a 26' camper around with a lead foot). Once a leak develops, it tends to cook the manifold around the leak and starts a corrosion cycle on the bolts near the leak. Only the bolts at the leaking port were broken and corroded, everything else came out fine. I think if I had pulled it when the leak first developed I would have had a much better chance of it coming out without snapping.

One other guy I talked to mentioned that these engines run too lean (for fuel economy) which further exacerbates the hot manifold problem.

Considering I've got 86k out of the truck and a lot of that was heavy towing, I'm not at all disappointed. I've pulled 6-7k enclosed and camper trailers through mountains without much fuss.

DickRasmussen · **Posted:** Fri Oct 11, 2013 12:14 pm

MikeWhitney wrote:

It's more of a duty cycle thing ... these engines are prone to warping exhaust manifolds when subjected to heavy towing loads (I have been dragging a 26' camper around with a lead foot). Once a leak develops, it tends to cook the manifold around the leak and starts a corrosion cycle on the bolts near the leak. Only the bolts at the leaking port were broken and corroded, everything else came out fine. I think if I had pulled it when the leak first developed I would have had a much better chance of it coming out without snapping.

One other guy I talked to mentioned that these engines run too lean (for fuel economy) which further exacerbates the hot manifold problem.

Considering I've got 86k out of the truck and a lot of that was heavy towing, I'm not at all disappointed. I've pulled 6-7k enclosed and camper trailers through mountains without much fuss.

Mike -

Thanks for the info. I wonder how the new turbocharged Ford engines with very high tow ratings will do in the long term of real life use? I know Ford did lots of extreme testing (the ads are great) but real life could be interesting assuming the exhaust system runs very hot!

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Places that can extract a broken manifold stud?

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