It's Been Fun...

TomFreeman · **Posted:** Wed Nov 19, 2014 8:24 pm

Richard Casto wrote:

Jason Mauldin wrote:

The saddest part is that Rob is completely missing the point. Social Media isn't the issue. The way you respond to people is an issue. The lack of respect is an issue. The lack of a schedule is an issue.

You can reap the benefits of social media without pissing away your existing members.

I can't comment one way or another about the AX program (co-drive next year anyone?). But I do think Rob is missing the point. Its not about social media. I personally think the FB presence is great. But Rob's communication style... Officer or otherwise... :thumbsdown:

http://www.amazon.com/How-Win-Friends-I ... 0671027034

Richard

Richard...When I was writing my post, I was going to add the link to the Carnegie book, but it's good to see we're on the same page.

JamesMilko · **Posted:** Wed Nov 19, 2014 8:39 pm

I like how random members are the voice of the club when you don't like they say. I thought we were irreverent hellraisers, or maybe we were a totally pussified PC squad. Or the PC squad and the irreverent hellraiers switch what side they want to be on whenever it suits them and we're all just milquetoast Cary residents. Keener, like me are just random club members with no higher standing than any other non-officer/staff member. So I'm not sure why his opinions would cause people to quit the club.

Also, bitching that AB doesn't run events is misplaced. He runs our track events. Would you say I don't participate in the club?

Rob Keehner · **Posted:** Wed Nov 19, 2014 8:49 pm

The issue as I see it is people who contributed in the past and have simply stayed home and grown sour grapes recently. If they were better at it then help train the next people. The quality put forth is the collective action of those willing to work as well as compete.

I'll let my actions and contributions speak for themselves. For my teamates the past few years, to loaning parts for people to makes events, to volunteering my time for setup or instruction. I've gotten 5 different novices to try autocross in the last two years. Won my class last year, and this year I think I did enough to win the Dishman Cup. I was heel of the year last year, won heel of the month again this year and have cochaired many events. So before these old timers cast stones at me they need to step out of the vacuum.

If all you are going to do is disparage the efforts of others, post negatively, and take action on the forums contrary to our benefit we don't need you.

So I might take Aarons post as a warning we are in decline, or I might take it as encouragement to others, either way it's not good for anybody. I just think 80 cars at an autox will be the norm because since the 'good old days', track, drifting, and beater racing all happened.

Actions not words, the paradigm of the club is getting out there not staying home and crying on the forum.

RichAnderson · **Posted:** Wed Nov 19, 2014 9:02 pm

Aaron was one of my "customers" and as such was entitle to my full attention and respect when he had an issue with the way in which the track program was being run. The treatment he has gotten here is unacceptable and is not reflective of what I see as the way that THSCC operates. If you don't see that you are unequivocally part of the problem. When I stand in front of our customers I tell them I want their feedback. In fact, I insist upon it. The idea that someone who takes the time to give us feedback, even if we don't like the message or the medium, deserves to be told to "fuck off" is incomprehensible to me.

My apologies; I didn't realize that Mr. Keehner was not an officer of the club at this time. Regardless of his standing, his stance should be immediately rebuked by the leadership of this club. We aren't in a position where we can piss off paying customers. While we all would like more people to volunteer their time, the fact remains that without the people who put in nothing more into the club than their hard earned money, THSCC would not operate as it does today. I know that I cannot afford to split the cost of renting VIR for myself and the other dozen or so people who work to make the track program possible.

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Wed Nov 19, 2014 9:58 pm

Rob Keehner wrote:

The issue as I see it is people who contributed in the past and have simply stayed home and grown sour grapes recently. If they were better at it then help train the next people. The quality put forth is the collective action of those willing to work as well as compete.

The club has and always will have a segment of armchair quarterbacks. The particularly frustrating ones are those who are new to the club but yet still tell everyone what is wrong. I fit this mold at one point myself. However I really try hard to NOT comment negatively on anything unless I am actively trying to be involved in the topic of the moment (such as online presence be it Forum, FB, etc.). However I do think some slack should be cut for those who have been in the trenches at some point and have the scars. You may not agree with these people but some respect is owed regardless of how much (or little) that they participate at club events. The broad generalizations are also unacceptable. Sadly, we are currently one step away from the phrase "you people".

Rob Keehner wrote:

I'll let my actions and contributions speak for themselves. For my teamates the past few years, to loaning parts for people to makes events, to volunteering my time for setup or instruction. I've gotten 5 different novices to try autocross in the last two years. Won my class last year, and this year I think I did enough to win the Dishman Cup. I was heel of the year last year, won heel of the month again this year and have cochaired many events. So before these old timers cast stones at me they need to step out of the vacuum.

However kick ass you are, or think you are, that is being eroded away by your other comments. Keep that in mind. At the moment you are your own worst enemy.

Rob Keehner wrote:

If all you are going to do is disparage the efforts of others, post negatively, and take action on the forums contrary to our benefit we don't need you.

Rob Keehner wrote:

Actions not words, the paradigm of the club is getting out there not staying home and crying on the forum.

Can you look in the mirror? I will not ask you to leave the club, but I will ask you to convert whatever it is your are doing into something positive and constructive.

RichAnderson wrote:

Regardless of his standing, his stance should be immediately rebuked by the leadership of this club.

IMHO... See Rodney's post above. Thank you for speaking up Rodney.

Lastly, this entire thread is nothing but ugly. Believe me, PMs and emails are flying behind the scenes regarding what to do. Should we shut this down? I don't know. Maybe. I know one issue is the likely rules violations around the lack of treating others with respect. I personally think we should be able to have a conversation that is constructive and critical but at the same time respectful. So lets try to change the tone. Rob, you have so far been the worst offender. Can you see the impact that you are having? Do you really think you are helping? Can you convert this into a productive conversation? No more warnings.

Richard

JamesMilko · **Posted:** Wed Nov 19, 2014 10:54 pm

As it's been said. If you don't like the way the club has been run step up. I'm on the list to unfuck the website since it's currently a train wreck.

I know in AB's case there are geographic issues since he's basically an expat currently.

RobLupella · **Posted:** Wed Nov 19, 2014 11:36 pm

I actually had the same immediate reaction to the post as Rob did. I typed out something and then erased it and decided to just say a silent (*%&#)% and went back to work. If you want to leave, just leave. If you have constructive criticism make it. Why start something as you walk out the door?

Yes Rob's F-Bomb was ill advised. It masked his point which he has the right to make just as much as Aaron has the right to leave if he feels he doesn't belong anymore.

Again, aside from the language and some of the tone of the posts is what he said any worse than Aaron's parting shot? Is Rob as a paying customer not allowed to object to someone's statement. Isn't this in effect what Aaron is complaining about - that the club is becoming too PC? I'm confused. <sarcasm> Rob actually does contribute to the club, he has chaired multiple events, worked on cleanup days, instructed at schools, added value in numerous ways. Whether he is a good driver or not is immaterial to club service.

I think that the tone of this thread got off on the wrong foot and didn't get any better.

Aaron Buckley · **Posted:** Wed Nov 19, 2014 11:37 pm

It's ok, I'm not offended by Rob's opinion/verbiage. I don't think Rob has any idea what I have done for the club. I'm not going to pat myself on the back, but those involved from 2001-2004 know how involved I was, while attending 6-8 National Tours/ProSolos each year as well as Nationals/ProFinale.

As others have alluded to, my post had a couple of different pieces to it. The whole FB thing just showed me there was a changing of the guard, with those in charge being very bothered by our club history.... the warts and all. I know that we live in a sanitized society, but hiding our history isn't something I want to be part of. When the club addressed the Confederate flag as part of our logo, while it got heated, a vote was taken on whether it was to be changed. There was no vote on censoring our history with our 50 year celebration upon us.

Secondly, the piece around "North Carolina's Premier Motorsports Club"... that ship sailed a long time ago. From autocross perspective, we used put on the best events, had the deepest talent pool and great cohesion. We had stellar organization, planning and leadership. We've struggled with that in the last 5-7 years. Back when I was an autocross VP, you were expected to have everything ready. Nothing was left to chance. I've got a pretty bad scar above my right knee trying to ensure the first Viper Club event went off without a hitch, because our club members and those who bought our services were the most important part equation. Please them and your club grows and thrives.

Right now, THSCC is the "Premier HPDE Organization". If you take a look at the effort and planning put into each event, it is evident with the product delivered. Maybe the autocross program could learn a thing or two from Brad, Stephen and the rest of the HPDE team?

Rob's right, I wasn't posting this with answers, as I've been 3 hours away for the last 10 years. I don't have the answers, but I can tell you from talking to people outside the club (hint, hint: our fellow NCAC club members) that the slide in the THSCC autocross program hasn't gone unnoticed. View it as a call to action, or like Rob, tell me to "eff off". It seems pretty obvious from some posts in this thread that other THSCC members see the state of our club in a similar fashion to me. - AB

Arthur McDonald · **Joined:** Fri Aug 29, 2003 1:54 am **Posts:** 2052

The thing that bugs me most is the use of obscenities recently in this forum. Everyone, please stop it. Moderators, either edit out occurrences or lock the threads, or lock out the offenders for an appropriate period of time. Officers or officer candidates need to set the example.

Ten years ago Aaron was one of the folks working very hard and creatively to make our A/X program successful and fun.

I'm from the generation of leaders that preceded them. We had strong leadership and a vision of what we wanted to do to make a better program, and have some fun doing it. Before us there was the generation of leaders led by a guy with a Gremlin and mullet who made THSCC the fun, irreverent, growing, and more than a bit cocky club that I joined.

These days Rob K, Noah, Brice, Derek, Carlton, Rodney (again) and a few others have picked up that mantle, and I thank them for it. Especially Brice, who has faced more challenges with site availability than I can recall in my time in the club. These folks need our help, and I hope we will give it to them. Any maybe we will make the operation of the A/X program look like fun so that the new folks coming into the club will want to dive in and get involved in the work.

shawnwhipple · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 6:28 pm **Posts:** 603

I wasn't going to say anything. I'm more of the "quietly fade away" type, but what the heck, I'll give my few cents worth since the subject has been raised. While I'm not at the point of quitting the club, I am planning on seriously dialing back on my participation next year.

My story is this, since I started attending events again a few years ago, I've always picked up a strange, stand-offish, vibe. The closest way I can describe the feeling I get is like I've shown up to a Duke/Carolina game wearing a NC State shirt with dog poop on my shoe. Everyone looks at you like WTF is your deal and why do you smell so bad?

I thought it was because I was a new guy again. It took a while but I realized that I was longer in the "in" crowd. I was once again a "noob" and I would have to pay my dues to be accepted back into the group. Well in my book the way you pay your dues is to help out. Since then, I've chaired events, volunteered for things like the EV challenge, been chief of tech, and helped out with other things behind the scenes. I feel I've done more than I really needed to but I'd rather help out too much rather than not enough. That was the way we did things back in the day. But even after a few years of being helpful, I still get that same weird vibe? I thought I'd I've got the crap off my shoes by now?

It wasn't until the whole trophy girls on FB flap that I began to see things a little more clearly. To my mind at least, a large part of the attitude I've picked up on is based on the fact that I'm one of "those" guys, that ran "that" kind of club. The way that issue was used by many in a weak attempt to prove that they are better than the folks who were in the club back then really showed a complete lack of respect to me and everyone who has been in the club for more than a few years. A lot of the folks that were involved with THSCC "back then" have raised their kids and now have the time and money to get back into motorsports. After a lot of the comments made do you really think those people feel welcome?

Aaron's post is a warning for the club. For every person like Aaron who will say something there are probably 10 more that quietly choose not to participate and spend their money and time elsewhere.

Vincent Keene · **Posted:** Thu Nov 20, 2014 10:46 am

shawnwhipple wrote:

Aaron's post is a warning for the club. For every person like Aaron who will say something there are probably 10 more that quietly choose not to participate and spend their money and time elsewhere.

What would you know Shawn? You are one of those who only paid $25 to not participate or help the club. I mean your opinion doesn't mean much with the crowd now days. Being President, Vice president, Chief of Tech, etc for many years just makes you one of us 'old timers' who did it all wrong back in the day. We made fun of ourselves, had trophy girls, offended people, got offended, etc. You know, we did it so wrong that we in fact had to have an access code to pre-register and actually turn people away. Not to worry, Rob and FaceBook is here to save it all.

Aaron Buckley · **Posted:** Thu Nov 20, 2014 10:52 am

I would be curious to put some numbers behind the arguements. Does anyone have statistics to club membership counts year over year? Facebook might bring a person out to event, but I would guess isn't securing increased membership. - AB

RichAnderson · **Posted:** Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:12 am

Aaron Buckley wrote:

I would be curious to put some numbers behind the arguements. Does anyone have statistics to club membership counts year over year? Facebook might bring a person out to event, but I would guess isn't securing increased membership. - AB

I am not sure if that data will provide the conclusion you have in mind. I conduct surveys for a memberships organization and the ability to gauge current satisfaction and engagement by looking at historical numbers is clouded by changes in demographic profiles. Relevant to THSCC, free online forums and social media provide many of the same touch points that a club provide 15 years ago. Furthermore, the younger generation isn't as likely to join anything, regardless of what it may be.

There are books, papers and lecturers covering the demographic shift and change in join rates. I have to know this stuff, but it is probably much too boring to cover in further detail.

TL;DR - not the droids you are looking for

Keith Quistorff · **Posted:** Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:15 am

shawnwhipple wrote:

I wasn't going to say anything. I'm more of the "quietly fade away" type, but what the heck, I'll give my few cents worth since the subject has been raised. While I'm not at the point of quitting the club, I am planning on seriously dialing back on my participation next year.

. . . .

It wasn't until the whole trophy girls on FB flap that I began to see things a little more clearly. To my mind at least, a large part of the attitude I've picked up on is based on the fact that I'm one of "those" guys, that ran "that" kind of club. The way that issue was used by many in a weak attempt to prove that they are better than the folks who were in the club back then really showed a complete lack of respect to me and everyone who has been in the club for more than a few years. A lot of the folks that were involved with THSCC "back then" have raised their kids and now have the time and money to get back into motorsports. After a lot of the comments made do you really think those people feel welcome?

Aaron's post is a warning for the club. For every person like Aaron who will say something there are probably 10 more that quietly choose not to participate and spend their money and time elsewhere.

Very well stated, Shawn - I think you've hit the nail on the head and clearly summarized the feelings of many of us. :clap:

Donnie Barnes · **Posted:** Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:23 am

The good news is that Shawn's right.

The bad news is there's no way to fix this kind of thing other than time and turnover.

The problem is simply personalities. I've seen it in other clubs, and it currently exists quite strongly in another club I'm a part of. I really don't think it's anything intentional, but when things are run by volunteers, sometimes this kind of thing is going to happen. The in-crowd becomes the out-crowd. You either make moves to replace the leadership (in group form, not just a person or two) you don't like, or you stay out of their way until it changes again. *shrug*

As someone who ponied up for the lifetime membership and is an "old guard" who doesn't participate in anything lately other than the forum anyway, I'm still appalled at the treatment afforded Aaron. And the Facebook thing. But fortunately it doesn't cost me any more money to just ride it out and see what the club is like in a few years when my kids are out of the house and I consider moving back into doing stuff with cars.

But the vibe Shawn talks about? It even comes across on the forum.

--Donnie

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