Overzealous insurance companies

Patrick Wellenius · **Posted:** Tue Apr 06, 2004 11:06 am

I'll also vouch for Bill Gary. I'm about to sign up with him for full coverage on the Corrado and not only is it about $300/year cheaper than my current company, but he's also real good to deal with. He'll work out all the options for you and crunch numbers till he's blue in the face (probably b/c one of the twins just spit up somewhere and he doesn't want to clean up). The fact that he autocrosses and understands our hobbies and mods, etc, is an added bonus. Like Dave said, he won't drop you for running an exhaust, etc, but I'm also not likely to claim the body damage from punting cones or whatever damage comes from autocross. Hell, I'm sure you could ask him a few questions "off the record" to see how things would work out if you do deicde to make claims. Just a vote for Bill.

David Spratte · **Posted:** Tue Apr 06, 2004 11:20 am

Adam Ligon wrote:

. . . terriorizing a few orange cones with a total "exposure" of risk of about 5 minutes in an 8 hr period. As an insurance agent I would take that risk every day of the week, and twice on sunday.

Hmm. . . I'm thinking you need to start up Black Forest Mutual Insurance Company

Vincent Keene · **Posted:** Tue Apr 06, 2004 11:29 am

Regarding what Diane said about a claim during a HPDE. I still don't get this. The exact same danger exists during a TT lap or a on a HPDE lap IMO. Note my vast track experience though of 3 times at VIR. So when a clock is running you are required (I know it's insurance related, but that it what we're discussing) to have all the Solo I safety equipment. The fact that you're on the same track doing the same speed in the same car has no bearing? You can do 125 down the straight on a HPDE lap with just your factory safety gear (3-point belt) but if you want to do that exact same thing on a TT lap (with that magical clock running) then you can't. Makes perfect sense to me! :roll:

I know where talking more Auto-X than HPDE here, but I had to go there. From the way I read it, you have a much better chance of being covered by your insurance company if the incident occured during an HPDE event than an Auto-X. All because of a damn timer? HPDE speeds are MUCH higher and the risk is much greater compared to Auto-X. That's just plain stupid IMO.

Kevin Hoff · **Posted:** Tue Apr 06, 2004 11:35 am

You all are arguing about things that are immaterial to my point in the original post.

Whether or not it is "right" for an insurance company to cover incidents that occur at an autocross is NOT what I'm concerned about.

I'm also not concerned about your personal behavior if the agent/underwriter/whomever calls and directly asks you if you "race" your car.

I am purely worried about personal privacy and minimizing the amount of verifiable personal information that is available on the THSCC web site. There have been people dropped based on activist reps web trolling and I think it is irresponsible for us to continue publicising such detailed information about our members on the web site. What is lost by implementing such a reasonable request? I think the privacy gain more than makes up for any slight inconvenience.

The two incidents I know of for certain were the Progressive incident up in NER last fall (IIRC) and Tom's Geico incident. Add the unbelievable Canadian stories on the Focus list and my opinion is now that it's irresponsible for us to post such stuff on the web site.

--Kevin H.

Diane Hall · **Posted:** Tue Apr 06, 2004 11:44 am

Adam - No I'm not playing devil's advocate. I'm totally serious. The way most of the world (including your insurance company) sees things, racing is dangerous, even if it is only in 2nd gear terrorizing cones. Do I agree with what the world thinks on the dangers/risk of Autocross/HPDE/Time Trials vs. street, heck no, but I have to play by the world's perceptions. Please, set up an insurance company. You'd have a ton of business if you cover racing related activities.

Vincent - Yes, HPDE is more dangerous than Auto-x. You know it, I know it. Time Trials (adding the clock to the HPDE) is more so, since now official competition has entered the picture. People have gotten HPDE damage paid for by threading a loophole in their policy about "driver's education". I'd also be willing to bet that those same people had their rates go up, or were dropped shortly after making the claim. It's the whole "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." mentality.

Does someone have a number so I can call Bill Gary and ask whether his company would pay out a Auto-X/HPDE/Time Trial claim without any more repercussions to the cost/availability of the policy then there would be if the same danage was incurred on the street?

Edit for a more on topic post: Kevin - Use a different name for results. "K. Hoff" for example. There must be tons of those. Problem solved.

David Spratte · **Posted:** Tue Apr 06, 2004 11:58 am

Diane Hall wrote:

Does someone have a number so I can call Bill Gary and ask whether his company would pay out a Auto-X/HPDE/Time Trial claim without any more repercussions to the cost/availability of the policy then there would be if the same danage was incurred on the street?

I've emailed Bill, waiting to hear back from him. He's been very busy with the twins these past couple of months.

To Kevin's question: What is the legal validity of information posted on a website? I mean, if everything posted online was factual the world would be pretty messed. I can't imagine a web posting of times by a local car club would hold water if it came to it.

Now photographs featuring a license plate is something else. Unless there's a recording of speed and intent or a more substantial witness of the activity, I think any insurance company is going to really go out of their way to loose customers. Maybe video would be more of an issue?

jimpastorius · **Posted:** Tue Apr 06, 2004 12:02 pm

Kevin Hoff wrote:

You all are arguing about things that are immaterial to my point in the original post.

Whether or not it is "right" for an insurance company to cover incidents that occur at an autocross is NOT what I'm concerned about.

I'm also not concerned about your personal behavior if the agent/underwriter/whomever calls and directly asks you if you "race" your car.

I am purely worried about personal privacy and minimizing the amount of verifiable personal information that is available on the THSCC web site. There have been people dropped based on activist reps web trolling and I think it is irresponsible for us to continue publicising such detailed information about our members on the web site. What is lost by implementing such a reasonable request? I think the privacy gain more than makes up for any slight inconvenience.

The two incidents I know of for certain were the Progressive incident up in NER last fall (IIRC) and Tom's Geico incident. Add the unbelievable Canadian stories on the Focus list and my opinion is now that it's irresponsible for us to post such stuff on the web site.

--Kevin H.

Register as a different person. I think it is silly to use Hoppe as an example. Did Gieco specifically say they saw he was racing or is it a his hunch to why they dropped him. Maybe the reason is he is under 25 and drives a WRX. If they are having more claims on the WRX for 25-30 years old, they will not renew you. That is my hunch.

Same thing for the NER person. The dude might have a terrible driving record and bought a Z06. Guess what, the insurance company will drop you in a heartbeat. Even if you only want to drive it to church on Sunday.

Finally, the reason insurance companies may balk at insuring modified cars is the cost of fixing the stupid things. Hey, when they insure a focus, they are counting on replacing focus parts. If you supercharge a focus, that is not the same car they originally agreed to insure.

Kevin Hoff · **Posted:** Tue Apr 06, 2004 12:09 pm

Diane, you are right in that the problem is solved for me if I use an alias to register. I think it's little effort for real privacy gains for the all the club's members to publish no last names or just first name/last initial on the web as a matter of policy.

And the legality of this isn't the issue. I think it's probably illegal for an insurance company to do what Geico did with Tom. It would take a huge amount of effort to protest such an action though -- it would almost certainly require a court case or at the minimum some sort of administrative precedure with the insurance commissioner on the part of the policyholder.

Edit: Jim, Tom told me that Geico dropped him because they saw his name listed as a participant in One Lap, not because he has a bad driving record. I think he's charmed actually -- he has _way_ fewer ticket than me! :lol:

Maybe he'll confirm this.

--Kevin H.

Vincent Keene · **Posted:** Tue Apr 06, 2004 12:16 pm

Kevin Hoff wrote:

You all are arguing about things that are immaterial to my point in the original post.

I'm not arguing, just discussing. All of our discussion is in fact pointless because of the insurance facts Diane has stated. That's the way it is...like or not.

Feels good to bitch about it with folks in the same boat sometimes though.

MikeWhitney · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm **Posts:** 4724

Kevin Hoff wrote:

The two incidents I know of for certain were the Progressive incident up in NER last fall (IIRC) and Tom's Geico incident. Add the unbelievable Canadian stories on the Focus list and my opinion is now that it's irresponsible for us to post such stuff on the web site.

--Kevin H.

I still say it's being paranoid. Maybe I'm stubborn, but I hate the thought of a bunch of damn insurance companies pushing me around. So no, I still don't support hiding information because we're afraid of something. If anyone wants to register under an alias, go right ahead.

That will preserve everyone's freedom of choice. And yes I feel strongly about this, but no I'm not arguing. Just a spirited discussion.

And like most things in this club, a change will only happen if there is consent among the senior officers. Y'all elected me so you have to put up with my opinion or change my mind

Until 2005 at least.

Kevin Hoff for Autox VP in 2005!!!

PS - Kevin, can you point me to more information about the NER event? I'd like to track whether this is really becoming widespread or not. I may even call my insurance company and ASK them if they are doing this. Who know what they will say. But if it's "yes", I'm going to fire them and get everyone else I know to do it so far.

Based on what I heard, I would strongly encourage ANYONE with Geico or Progressive to fire those companies and shop for someone more friendly to your lifestyle.

Any other companies on the insurance blacklist?

Go free enterprise!

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Tue Apr 06, 2004 1:30 pm

I am curious to find out exactly how the insurance companies is going about doing this. Web bots with a list of sites to dig through? I think that might be the first step to trying to protect your information.

I also wonder if the long term issue with something like this is a solution with large organizations such as SCCA and the potential impact on independent clubs. Would an SCCA developed/sponsored and potentially subsidized policy allow the use of the car at non-SCCA events?

Diane Hall · **Posted:** Tue Apr 06, 2004 1:36 pm

Richard Casto wrote:

I also wonder if the long term issue with something like this is a solution with large organizations such as SCCA and the potential impact on independent clubs. Would an SCCA developed/sponsored and potentially subsidized policy allow the use of the car at non-SCCA events?

Hum... Interesting question. Something kind of related came up with the guy that blew the finish at some event up here. It was brought up that just because an independent club uses the car classification rules of the SCCA, that didn't mean they use *all* the rules. Specifically Safety Stewards, speed limits, etc. So would a deal the SCCA brokered include clubs not associated... I'd have to guess probably not. Hum... Interesting question indeed.

shawnwhipple · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 6:28 pm **Posts:** 603

To get back to the original point. Club members can change thier preregistration info to be first name, Last initial. Hell you can change it to a fake name if you want. I've always thought that I make a good Dirk. What do you think of Dirk Conesmasher?

Seriously, if you so desire, you can remove your real name from the results and entry list pages by the above method.

As far as pictures of your car goes, I would suggest covering your plate and any other identifing marks yourself. You should not rely on the club to do it for you. Most of the pictures taken at our events are not posted on the offical website and are beyond the control of the club anyway.

I'm not so concerned about the forum since it is supposedly a members only thing.

Shawn

David Spratte · **Posted:** Wed Apr 07, 2004 2:58 pm

Got a response. It's not all good news, but it's practical. If nothing else it's good to know that someone in the business is thinking rationally about these things. To me the Reader's Digest version is: Race cars aren't insured. So street cars aren't insured while being raced.

Quote:

I am an insurance agent with some affiliation with THSCC, though I can't say who or which company/ies I write for. I will say that GEICO blows.

Virtually every insurer in NC considers auto-x a form of racing and will cancel you if they find out you are doing it in a car that is insured on their policy. They have no interest in changing this view and it is likely that only action from the Legislature would convince them otherwise. Or if the number of auto-xers grew tremendously and a niche market opportunity was created--just not enough folks right now, would take 5000 or more in NC. Is it fair to lump THSSC members in with F&F ricers? No but then nothing after the age of four is.

I said virtually every company but perhaps not all. While I have not found an insurer that will let me write any coverage for auto-x vehicles, that doesn't mean there's not one out there--I'll keep looking. It's possible that liability-only coverage is available. This means no comp, no collision and probably premiums that are still high.

I have not personally seen any indication that NC insurers are seeking to weed out high risks in the manner described. However, give them time and a reason and they will. Huge settlements after accidents involving street racers have led insurers in places like TX, AZ, CA and NY to such measures. Say some 17-year old in a riced Integra hits another car during a race and paralyzes a middle-aged woman. Once his liability limit, probably the minimum of 30K, is exhausted, her auto policy begins paying and then her health insurance. More street races have led to more crashes and injuries and insurance payments. While the import-tuner, F&F crowd may be responsible, the auto-x community gets to feel the pain as well. Once again, a few jackasses ruin things for everyone else.

A few opinions and tips:
* Don't carry comp and collision on your auto-x car. If you do (ie, you are still making payments), know you are running a risk of being canceled if the company finds out.

* If you have comp and collision on your auto-x car, DO NOT turn in a claim for damage suffered during an auto-x event. You'll likely be canceled, your claim might not even be paid and you will attract attention to the auto-x community. If that happens enough times, the hammer will come down.

* It is probably a good idea for THSCC to not post last names on its results page or better yet make access to the results secure. Like I say, I don't think trolling for auto-xers is common now but why wait until after it becomes so?

* As for hiding tag numbers at events, up to the individual. I trust these companies, including my own, about as much as I trust John Ashcroft which is zero, but I'm not paranoid either. Perhaps just keep a close eye for strangers hanging in the pits with notebooks at events.

* Deal with an agent for your insurance and do not volunteer info if it isn't asked. Avoid using internet or toll-free only companies--there are legal reasons for this I will not go into. If it is asked by an agent, be upfront. If told no, keep shopping.

Kevin Hoff · **Posted:** Wed Apr 07, 2004 3:48 pm

Ugh. Almost as bad as I feared...

In any case, I just sent a note to Pete Lyon, the SCCA insurance/risk management person. He's part of the old guard so might not respond to my note but if I hear anything back from him I'll post it here (assuming he gives permission)

Now as Diane said, what applies to SCCA sanctioned events may not apply here since Tarheel is an independent club. It should be interesting in any case.

--Kevin H.

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