THSCC Forums

30 years ago we usually had between 60 and 70 when Wake Country had ~300,000 which factored would mean around 200 today.

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Current stable:
2019 BMW M2 Competition slicktop 6MT
2011 BMW M3 sedan slicktop 6MT
2007 BMW 328i wagon (slushbox for now)
1975 CanAm 125MX2

If it were any easier they would call it roadracing

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02 Focus SVT
STF 9

thank you Ryan for giving me the in on this.

let me share some personal experience as a "customer" of THSCC.

i hit the ground running. trailered BMW with no excuses. licensed driver for 30 years or so. no clue how to drive at speed, but i didn't know that at the time.

L'Burg 2005, acres of flat concrete with cones abundant. 2nd to last finish, 2.5+ hours at a worker station at the end of the day. brutal experience.

i came back in spite of this initial experience only to end up in G-Vegas with a double fold back interior spiral un-godly brutal configuration of cones on a postage stamp sized parking lot. thanks Art & Patrice.

ya'lls course set-ups are NOT novice friendly. but i met a bunch of people. Lupella told me he could teach me how to autoX, Whitney told me i needed a new clutch. (that and i needed to get my foot off the clutch pedal).

i could go on for ever with this, but it is and has been my considered opinion for many years that we as a club don't really always look at growth and new membership when we go out and do what we like to do on the weekends.

it is tough i suppose to be "The" premier autoX club in the state and still accept the dregs of autoX such as myself who either thru genetics or too much chemical abuse just don't catch the science in the first or 40th time on one of these over-analyzed, deeply vindictive course designs that we were so famous for from 2005 - 2007.

ya'll want to keep the people that show up, make it enjoyable to everyone. but realistically, how do we attract new people? are we actively advertising our presence yet? and where are we looking for new members?

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BenchWarmer Motorsports

another one of those damn LeMons heads

just another Chump

we are an Autocross Club Dammit............

If ATL and Philly are showing declines, I wager our product is not the #1 issue. Expensive gas, expensive tires, bad economy, other interests likely contribute in a multifactorial blast that drops our attendance. most people posting on this thread are not heavily involved in THSCC autox (compared to implications about past involvement), which is telling and certainly gets my attention.

Does that mean we shouldn't reassess and do something inventive? Of course not!

I like the idea of a night series--given how fondly it is recalled, why not reconsider this?

The 10% novice retention number--where is this generated/calculated? If it's true and accurate then that sucks, and I'd start here. Do we email all previous participants (esp Novices) with upcoming event reminders and encouragement to join us? If not, let's start doing that. I know that as a novice I never got any email communication about upcoming THSCC events, but it would've served as a timely reminder.

Also, I like the idea about cards to place under wipers of sportscars we see during the course of the day.

Have we joined all the local car forums? Are we posting our events there? Rodney's Mustang Outreach Project has netted not just new attenders, but new membership--that's what we like to see, and I bet we could get more of it.

(as an aside, I wonder if the ST reorg thing will bring people who drive OTC cars (other than Civic) to more events, boosting overall attendance....

Great discussion--thanks!

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Steve Carter
1972 Datsun 240Z-- resto pics at http://picasaweb.google.com/srcartermd
2007 GPW Honda S2000-- STR 86

I think all clubs have been hit by the economy. At the national level something like the BMWCCA is showing membership dropping, and I think the CCA Tarheel Chapter is down ~15% from peak numbers a few years back. Atlanta autox numbers are definitely down significantly, maybe 25% or so.

I think there is a sea-change occurring with many people where they are actually looking at their finances, figuring out they need to be saving far more than in the past, etc. Just look at any of the stats, stuff like 44M people on foodstamps now to double digit true unemployment, underemployment, and couple that with one of the slowest recoveries in history -- heck, autox programs will be lucky to just not have further losses this year one would think.

It's probably one of the reasons the whole R-comp vs street tire thing in stock classes has reignited in come circles recently (and Street Tire Challenges are popping up in some clubs like Atlanta this year). I've always been on the street tire side of that argument, but I am usually mowed over before even being able to express the thought. A novice showing up in a stock whatever finding out that to even hope to be competitive as his/her skills build will need custom shocks, larger front sway bar, 2nd set of wheels and then an on-going cash flow of expensive and quickly disappearing R-comp tires, well, who could forgive the vast majority for canning the idea?

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Current stable:
2019 BMW M2 Competition slicktop 6MT
2011 BMW M3 sedan slicktop 6MT
2007 BMW 328i wagon (slushbox for now)
1975 CanAm 125MX2

Steve, you are way too sensitive, that was a joke.

2 of the problems you have mentioned are already taken care of unfortunately

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02 Focus SVT
STF 9

I would love to see a half day option. It would more than likely get me out there. Spending almost all day for 4 to 5 mins of runs is it a bit much for me. I like to socialize as much as the next person but would love the option of leaving early or showing up late. To those who say this is more that about the racing, and I understand that also. Who says you have to leave after your runs are done or show up in the afternoon, hell you would probably get more time to socialize

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David Teague
2015 Lexus IS 250c
1994 Honda Del Sol HS 39
2009 Dodge Journey R/T
http://teaguefamily.us

The night series worked for a couple of reasons. The first being location, the second simplicity of the course (had to be since we had about 60 minutes to set up everything and I mean everything...course, bus, parking, etc). There were no long drivers meetings, no badgering over the PA. Don't get me wrong, it was competitive as hell.

We had three great sites that turned people out in droves, Rocky Mount, Morrisville and RBC center. Not just competitor, but friends and family. Two of those sites, Morrisville and the first RBC center lot were smaller than Greenville!

Now the closest site is Sanford, still an hour drive from Raleigh. You figure Laurenburg and now Danville are two hour drives from Raleigh! Forget it. You are not going to get new people to drive two hours to Virginia or two hours to BFE Laurinburg to try autocross.

In less than two hours, you can be at a Triad event or even at VMP for a NASA event. And those sites are better than any we have.

Now if you do get a new person to drive 2 hours to try autocross and the courses are so difficult to figure out that they pile up DNF's, good luck on getting them back or having them tell their friends how fun it is. Two hour drive home to stew about three DNF's does not help.

Check the stats, I bet you compare events in the last couple of years, you will see an increase in DNF's. Just saying.

I wonder if you told Graham that he only had to drive 15-30 minutes to the event, would have a great chance to get 4-5 timed runs and could get 5 or 6 good course walks in; would his attitude change?

Here are some of my recommendations:

- Location, location, location. Start with a 10 mile radius of Raleigh, work out to a 20 mile and worse a 30 mile radius. Find some place, any place. Pay the freaking dollars for the site rental instead of dumping money into some fancy bus. The bus is not an issue driving it a 30 mile round trip as opposed to a 180 mile round trip.

For those that remember the first RBC lot, would you rather have that area or Laurinburg?

- Simplify the courses. Making them simple does not mean they can not be a challenge.

- Get the word out. I was shocked at the negative response to Rodney's Facebook attempt. Sorry people, catch up to the 21st century. Jon Felton is using this free medium to get the word about the NASA events. It kind of works. Probably better than sticking notes on people's cars and cheaper (add to site rental fund).

- Invite local car clubs out. That is how I got involved...the local Miata club was invited out. There was actually a special class for us and trophies.

- Oh trophies, bring them back. Everyone loves a trophy as opposed to magnets. You can put the trophy in your office or special room and it works as great advertisement. A magnet on the refrigerator...spare me. Cheap.

- Be nice on event day, smile. Nary a mean comment should be broadcast on the PA. Say please and thank you. Do not have anyone talking down to people. I remember what sucked me into NASA, how damn nice everyone is. The people that run those, it is their business so they have an incentive

Sorry for the rant, back to work.

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Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

The reason numbers are never gonna grow past a certain point is simple...this is a club and not a business. There's no incentive, as Jim points out in that last point, to be "nice." Not that people in the club generally aren't, but at times they aren't and it's because they don't HAVE to be. Same kind of problem you have with every club, really, SCCA included.

So while there is THAT somewhat fundamental issue, the issue Jim points out about finding some kind of site actually in the "triangle" really is a big deal. I agree with him totally on that one (well, I agree with the rest of his points, too, I'm just saying that some of them can't or won't change).


--Donnie

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My Blog

to add to what Jim said...........

bring back the "Ooompah Loompah" song !!!!!!!

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BenchWarmer Motorsports

another one of those damn LeMons heads

just another Chump

we are an Autocross Club Dammit............

In talking with Rodney, this is way, way up on his priority list.

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02 Focus SVT
STF 9

Comment regarding small lots.

The site in the San Francisco area where I started and where I learned enough to win an SCCA National Champion on my first try was smaller than Greenville, especially considering the light poles down the middle at the CA site (Alameda County Fairgrounds in Pleasanton). For a number of years the San Francisco Region of SCCA dominated the National Championships and most of the events were run on course either at Pleasonton or on similar courses at other sites).

The key was multiple laps per run and good consistent pavement so driving at the limit and sorting the car was practical.

There were a LOT of Corvettes and fast mod cars so local preference required realatively open courses (30 - 60 mph in a stock Datsun Z on 1970's vintage tires).

SF's philosophy for course design was "minature road race course" with mostly second gear for most cars. i.e. just like Nationals and most Pro Solos. Courses were EASY to follow and learn so the emphasis was on driving the car at the limit . . . like track racing or open track.

Morrisville was too tight and didn't have a good way for people to watch. I learned a lot in my early days by watching the fast guys and gals at Pleasanton since we could easily walk around 3 sides of the course area and see/study all the drivers.

If we could find a relatively local site similar in size to Greenville or the Greenboro site on the "hillside" (without the hill) we wouldn't know what to do with all the entrants if we used a multilap format with "Nationals" style course philosophy.

Now, how do we find one? The lower parking lot at the Fairgrounds looked real good . . . until they added all that vendor stuff . . . plus they seem to think the property should be used for tons of other stuff for some reason.

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Dick Rasmussen

FS 50 2018 Mustang GT

30+ years back we used a couple of lots here in Raleigh...the fairgrounds and the old Brendle's lot in Kidds Hill Plaza (think that is what it was called, where the Steak and Ale used to be). They were both relatively small, but we had some nice courses. I also recall using the Wilson mall lot with a huge course that wrapped around the side of the mall, had elevation changes, etc.

One the biggest changes from back then was that stuff was mostly closed on Sundays, so finding empty lots to rent was relatively vastly easier than today.

Speaking of small lots, in the late 70's the NCSU sports car club used the lot next to the main parking deck, Cates Ave (which has since been covered by a second, add-on, parking deck). The lot was small, but we used an out and return, one car on course layout and had a lot of fun there...air tube timing trigger and all.

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Current stable:
2019 BMW M2 Competition slicktop 6MT
2011 BMW M3 sedan slicktop 6MT
2007 BMW 328i wagon (slushbox for now)
1975 CanAm 125MX2

Maybe Morrisville was not ideal. But it was close It did pack the crowds in though. If you did DNF, you would smack one of those trailers or worse go under the fence.

I remember a few years back Jim and I taking the MR2 down to an event in Greenville. The site was a movie theater parking lot. Each run was actually two laps. If I remember right, probably a total of 40 seconds. But it was a blast. Add to the fact it was in civilization and the course was lined by spectators probably 2-3 deep.

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Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

People have had the choice (wood or magnet) for over TWO years now. Try and keep up Jim.



I know I'm in the minority, but since you asked, I would actually rather drive 2.5 hours to run LB vs. 1 hour to run RBC.

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Vincent Keene
'06 Ford Mustang GT (track rat)
'15 Dodge Charger R/T (yeah, it's got a HEMI!)
'07 Ford Fusion SE (205,000 miles and counting)
'98 Chevy Z-24 (retired)
'93 Acura Integra (Team SWB 24HOL Car)