new bus?

Jason Tower · **Joined:** Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:31 pm **Posts:** 1173

RobLupella wrote:

Notwithstanding the other arguements, I don't think that "more people would be willing to drive" should be considered. I don't think the bus's instability to be that big a factor in recruitment, we have a declining number of people who are willing to do anything other than show up and drive and work, (well sometimes work) :wink:

The only caveat to the above in my mind is Charlie's issue with getting the driver's car to the event. If they are not close and/or have a two driver car, they are forced to borrow one.

i only drove it once, and while it wasn't the greatest pleasure in the world it certainly wasn't THAT bad. a front end rebuild would probably help immensely, it wasn't unstable just very sloppy. the power and trans were (barely) adequate.

Karl Shultz · **Posted:** Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:41 pm

Marty Howard wrote:

Could a "Toy Hauler" be used and then there wouldn't be a trailer and there would be space for the driver's car?

Not really, because we use the bus as a place for the timing and scoring team to do their job in. We've done it - I dragged enough equipment to have a somewhat serviceable test day in my F250 last year - but for a proper points event, it wouldn't be practical.

The trailer is something that we must keep. Part of what makes the current setup good is the fact that, if need be, we can bring just the trailer and have enough stuff to make an event happen.

steve remchak · **Posted:** Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:44 pm

Jason Tower wrote:

RobLupella wrote:

Notwithstanding the other arguements, I don't think that "more people would be willing to drive" should be considered. I don't think the bus's instability to be that big a factor in recruitment, we have a declining number of people who are willing to do anything other than show up and drive and work, (well sometimes work) :wink:

The only caveat to the above in my mind is Charlie's issue with getting the driver's car to the event. If they are not close and/or have a two driver car, they are forced to borrow one.

i only drove it once, and while it wasn't the greatest pleasure in the world it certainly wasn't THAT bad. a front end rebuild would probably help immensely, it wasn't unstable just very sloppy. the power and trans were (barely) adequate.

i drove it once also. real POS to drive IMO.

MikeWhitney · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm **Posts:** 4724

Guys, without going over the finer points of all the different options, I think we will stick with the current plan of a shuttle bus. Dustin and I have talked over all the options and I'm pretty sure it's the best choice at the moment.

Now if you vehemently disagree and have a good argument to back up a different choice, give me a call and let's debate it. I'm open to new ideas, and I think I have weighed pros and cons myself personally on everything I can think of.

So for now the requirements:

E450 shuttle bus
As new as possible and as low miles as possible
Longer wheelbase, shorter overhang
Not too much bigger than what we have now
V10 or PSD
About $10k

MikeWhitney · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm **Posts:** 4724

I just had a crazy idea to throw out there -- Since the old bus won't be worth much, why not keep it as a dedicated Rallycross bus? RallyX already has its own laptop and cones, just need radios, flags, and extinguishers thrown in there, and it could be basically self supporting. Let it stay dirty all the time. It wouldn't need to travel much, just Clayton and Four Oaks most of the time and occasionally to OCS.

Of course there are plenty of downsides (registration, maintenance, cost of duplicating equipment, etc) but it would solve some challenges the club has. Plus without the trailer the rallycross bus could be used to tow a car if needed, and without the box trailer in tow it drives just fine.

Just a crazy thought... I'm not convinced it would be a good idea

On edit - we could rent the rallyx bus out to other clubs in need of equipment. Plus it would be available as a backup if the autocross bus is out of commission for extended periods of time

Marty Howard · **Posted:** Tue Feb 16, 2010 5:01 pm

Karl Shultz wrote:

Marty Howard wrote:

Could a "Toy Hauler" be used and then there wouldn't be a trailer and there would be space for the driver's car?

Not really, because we use the bus as a place for the timing and scoring team to do their job in. We've done it - I dragged enough equipment to have a somewhat serviceable test day in my F250 last year - but for a proper points event, it wouldn't be practical.

The trailer is something that we must keep. Part of what makes the current setup good is the fact that, if need be, we can bring just the trailer and have enough stuff to make an event happen.

Sorry, I was refering to a "toy hauler" as one of the RV/garage combo rides.

Most have either a 16'-17' garage space, then a smaller 12' RV area for setup. There is a couple of them on Racing junk at the moment for Sub. $12K. This could mean no trailer....enought space for timing equiptment and course supplies, and A/C place for scoring and still enough room for a car if the kitchen and beds were removed. Plus a bathroom to boot.

Dustin Fredrickson · **Posted:** Tue Feb 16, 2010 5:24 pm

Marty Howard wrote:

Karl Shultz wrote:

Marty Howard wrote:

Could a "Toy Hauler" be used and then there wouldn't be a trailer and there would be space for the driver's car?

Not really, because we use the bus as a place for the timing and scoring team to do their job in. We've done it - I dragged enough equipment to have a somewhat serviceable test day in my F250 last year - but for a proper points event, it wouldn't be practical.

The trailer is something that we must keep. Part of what makes the current setup good is the fact that, if need be, we can bring just the trailer and have enough stuff to make an event happen.

Sorry, I was refering to a "toy hauler" as one of the RV/garage combo rides.

Most have either a 16'-17' garage space, then a smaller 12' RV area for setup. There is a couple of them on Racing junk at the moment for Sub. $12K. This could mean no trailer....enought space for timing equiptment and course supplies, and A/C place for scoring and still enough room for a car if the kitchen and beds were removed. Plus a bathroom to boot.

I think one of these could be a great solution, in general, at an event. BUT, there are a couple BIG downsides IMO.

1) where to park the thing - our current rig is already too big to fit in the storage place we used to park the last (school) bus. Anything that approaches this size is going to be challenging and/or costly at best to find a home for.

2) We depend on volunteers, many who don't regularly tow much or at all. Large rigs will only compound the issue of finding drivers.

3) a bigger trailer will need a bigger tow vehicle. While the trailer itself could be in the budget, a trailer and the 100% necessary large diesel we'll need to pull it, are not.

Like Mike and others have mentioned, I think an slightly re-shaped version of the shuttle-bus we have is really the ideal solution for us. It doesn't fix the "get the bus driver's car to the event" problem, but few other viable trailer-based solutions will, either.

Steven Carter · **Posted:** Tue Feb 16, 2010 5:36 pm

http://www.commercialtrucktrader.com/me ... 0-95889379

So...is it only diesel we're looking for? All the buses I've found online have been gas. What's our price range? Looking for a late-model low mileage diesel bus will take awhile given how few seem to be available, and it seems we'd have to pay up for it if we want a ten-year plan and its assumed reliability.

MikeWhitney · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm **Posts:** 4724

Steven Carter wrote:

http://www.commercialtrucktrader.com/medium-duty-trucks/find/listing/2004-FORD-E450-95889379

So...is it only diesel we're looking for? All the buses I've found online have been gas. What's our price range? Looking for a late-model low mileage diesel bus will take awhile given how few seem to be available, and it seems we'd have to pay up for it if we want a ten-year plan and its assumed reliability.

MikeWhitney wrote:

So for now the requirements:

E450 shuttle bus
As new as possible and as low miles as possible
Longer wheelbase, shorter overhang
Not too much bigger than what we have now
V10 or PSD
About $10k

Edit to add: Look for buses with the wheelchair access between the axles, not behind the rear axle. These always are shorter and/or longer wheelbase. We need about 15 passenger or less.

For reference purposes:

Current bus
wheelbase 11.5 foot (138")
overhang (rear axle to back of rear bumper 7 foot
ratio: 1.7

Typical E450 mid-mount wheelchair door
wheelbase 13 foot (158")
overhang 6 foot
ratio 2.2

F350 long wheelbase pickup truck ("tows like a dream")
wheelbase ~14 foot
overhang ~4 foot
ratio 3.5

Nice example but a bit too big. E450's come in 138 and 176 inch wheelbase, I think this is the larger one, but I could be wrong. Ratio based on the pics is 2.3.
http://charlotte.craigslist.org/cto/1581464387.html

This one is awfully close to being "right". Just wish the mileage was lower. Ratio is 2.1
http://myrtlebeach.craigslist.org/cto/1580097454.html

This one is about right, it's a PSD but the mileage is high. Ratio is 2.2
http://miami.craigslist.org/mdc/cto/1557869939.html

It's also on ebay and they will let it go for $6500
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Ford-E-S ... 11da#v4-30

Marty Howard · **Posted:** Tue Feb 16, 2010 5:47 pm

Dustin,

I was thinking on something that wouldn't need a trailer too.

http://www.racingjunk.com/category/110/ ... TOTER.html

Steven Carter · **Posted:** Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:03 pm

MikeWhitney wrote:

Steven Carter wrote:

http://www.commercialtrucktrader.com/medium-duty-trucks/find/listing/2004-FORD-E450-95889379

So...is it only diesel we're looking for? All the buses I've found online have been gas. What's our price range? Looking for a late-model low mileage diesel bus will take awhile given how few seem to be available, and it seems we'd have to pay up for it if we want a ten-year plan and its assumed reliability.

MikeWhitney wrote:

So for now the requirements:

E450 shuttle bus
As new as possible and as low miles as possible
Longer wheelbase, shorter overhang
Not too much bigger than what we have now
V10 or PSD
About $10k

Edit to add: Look for buses with the wheelchair access between the axles, not behind the rear axle. These always are shorter and/or longer wheelbase. We need about 15 passenger or less.

Thanks, Mike. I saw that... 15 passenger or less will be about the size we have now, won't it? That will not change the axle to overhang ratio very much as most of those type of shuttle buses are built in a similar bodystyle. Newish + low mileage will not equal 10k unless it's a smaller bus, with the potential that we'll find ourselves with a newer version of what we have and don't like. I think we should at least prepare for spending somewhere in the 15-20k range.

MikeWhitney · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm **Posts:** 4724

Steven Carter wrote:

Thanks, Mike. I saw that... 15 passenger or less will be about the size we have now, won't it? That will not change the axle to overhang ratio very much as most of those type of shuttle buses are built in a similar bodystyle. Newish + low mileage will not equal 10k unless it's a smaller bus, with the potential that we'll find ourselves with a newer version of what we have and don't like. I think we should at least prepare for spending somewhere in the 15-20k range.

Steve, sorry I did a ninja edit with some answers to your questions in my post above...

E350 has a 138" wheelbase
E450 has a 158" wheelbase
E450 also available in a 176" wheelbase (too big)
Rear-mount wheelchair buses typically have a 7' overhang
Center-mount wheelchair is more like 6'

So a small E450 with a center wheelchair dramatically improves the wheelbase-to-overhang ratio from like 1.7 to 2.2. I have found several under $10k with high mileage in both PSD and V10. They are out there.

I also think we should go with a pullrite hitch on the next bus:
http://www.pullrite.com/pullrite.htm

Donnie Barnes · **Posted:** Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:32 pm

MikeWhitney wrote:

I also think we should go with a pullrite hitch on the next bus:
http://www.pullrite.com/pullrite.htm

Just realize that moving the pivot point like that INCREASES off-tracking, making it easier to run over stuff with the trailer wheels as you turn. Looks like you don't use a normal ball to attach the trailer any more, which eliminates the second pivot point...that's good, because otherwise you'd never be able to back the thing, either.

--Donnie

Dustin Fredrickson · **Posted:** Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:47 pm

MikeWhitney wrote:

I also think we should go with a pullrite hitch on the next bus:
http://www.pullrite.com/pullrite.htm

I'm tempted to suggest that we try one of these on the current bus, then move it over to the new rig when we get one. The same model fits 92-05 years of the E-350 chassis. From what I can tell, they simply use an extension insert to accomodate long overhang campers, so we may have some adjustment....

Reward to anybody who can find one of these to fit an E350 on an RV board, fleabay, craigslist, etc...

BretLuter · **Posted:** Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:42 pm

Found the next RallyX bus:

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