Sept 5th RallyX @ BMW Farm

Dustin Fredrickson · **Posted:** Fri Aug 28, 2009 12:51 pm

Good energy here from a few people. But we need that energy to spread to others as well. I'd recommend you guys harness some of this to spread the word and try to get some fresh blood out to events.

RichardNuss wrote:

And I keep thinking - do we have to make RallyX break even on each event, or break even for a whole season? We could lose money on one event, but make money on high attendance at another.

Actually, we've always run RallyX this way. If you do the math, 25 entrants is a losing proposition.... This is made up for in the events where 40 people turn out. Don't forget the club has operating costs too that are not event related (Bus maintenance, timing equipment, etc...), paid for only by the profit from events. If RallyX only breaks even for an event with it's direct costs, it's really not sustainable.

Michael Czeiszperger · **Joined:** Thu Apr 09, 2009 9:35 am **Posts:** 861

Dustin Fredrickson wrote:

This is made up for in the events where 40 people turn out. Don't forget the club has operating costs too that are not event related (Bus maintenance, timing equipment, etc...), paid for only by the profit from events. If RallyX only breaks even for an event with it's direct costs, it's really not sustainable.

OK, so how's RallyX doing for this season, and how does it compare to past seasons? Without data its impossible to say if there's been a slide, and by how much. I've only been to the last event, but that seemed to have enough folks. Who's to say that the Sep. event was just too close to a major holiday, and everybody's spouse made them go do a multi-day family event instead?

Dustin Fredrickson · **Posted:** Fri Aug 28, 2009 8:54 pm

Michael Czeiszperger wrote:

Dustin Fredrickson wrote:

This is made up for in the events where 40 people turn out. Don't forget the club has operating costs too that are not event related (Bus maintenance, timing equipment, etc...), paid for only by the profit from events. If RallyX only breaks even for an event with it's direct costs, it's really not sustainable.

OK, so how's RallyX doing for this season, and how does it compare to past seasons? Without data its impossible to say if there's been a slide, and by how much. I've only been to the last event, but that seemed to have enough folks. Who's to say that the Sep. event was just too close to a major holiday, and everybody's spouse made them go do a multi-day family event instead?

Michael, I know this is well intentioned, but again, I think the energy is best spent getting others involved in the program, and not (at least appearing to) second guess the hard decisions made by the VP's.

Weather, holidays, other events, etc... all play in to the number of people who come out to play. The best we can do is make decisions/predictions with what limited info we have available.

Michael Czeiszperger · **Joined:** Thu Apr 09, 2009 9:35 am **Posts:** 861

Dustin Fredrickson wrote:

Michael, I know this is well intentioned, but again, I think the energy is best spent getting others involved in the program, and not (at least appearing to) second guess the hard decisions made by the VP's. Weather, holidays, other events, etc... all play in to the number of people who come out to play. The best we can do is make decisions/predictions with what limited info we have available.

Maybe you misunderstood-- I'm not second-guessing the VP's, but was asking if we were simply overreacting. As an engineering manager, I'm used to making decisions based on numbers, and as a fan of Tufte, the presentation of figures is critical to understanding of events.

For example, if you look month-by-month since 2007, it looks like there's been a drop in attendance:

But if you look at the average attendance, the number of people at each event has been about the same in 2008 and 2009.

There was a 13% drop between 2007 and 2008/2009, but that was presumably before any economic effects. I also noticed the Sep. 2007 event was barely viable, and it was about the same time, so its a good guess the proximity to a holiday is a factor.

Conclusion: rallycross is indeed in need of more participants compared to the other two THSCC disciplines, but its not significantly worse than last year.

We'd have to survey the autocross and track participants to find out exactly why they don't participate in rallycross, but hitting up vehicle owners who already have toughened vehicles, i.e. 4x4 and truck owners is an interesting gambit, and worth the effort.

steve remchak · **Posted:** Fri Aug 28, 2009 10:14 pm

Michael Czeiszperger wrote:

Dustin Fredrickson wrote:

Michael, I know this is well intentioned, but again, I think the energy is best spent getting others involved in the program, and not (at least appearing to) second guess the hard decisions made by the VP's. Weather, holidays, other events, etc... all play in to the number of people who come out to play. The best we can do is make decisions/predictions with what limited info we have available.

Maybe you misunderstood-- I'm not second-guessing the VP's, but was asking if we were simply overreacting. As an engineering manager, I'm used to making decisions based on numbers, and as a fan of Tufte, the presentation of figures is critical to understanding of events.

For example, if you look month-by-month since 2007, it looks like there's been a drop in attendance:

But if you look at the average attendance, the number of people at each event has been about the same in 2008 and 2009.

There was a 13% drop between 2007 and 2008/2009, but that was presumably before any economic effects. I also noticed the Sep. 2007 event was barely viable, and it was about the same time, so its a good guess the proximity to a holiday is a factor.

Conclusion: rallycross is indeed in need of more participants compared to the other two THSCC disciplines, but its significantly worse than last year.

oh shit. look what we have started. would someone please pull Whitney out from under that Integra for a look at this. :lol:

KouroshNeshat · **Posted:** Sat Aug 29, 2009 4:52 pm

I dig the graphs. lol.

But i think we all need to be on the same level or something.

I think our main goal, as a club, is to attract more attn to the rallyX side of things. But that may be hard since the first thing people think of when they hear rallyX, is beating on the car. While I agree, its really not as bad as some say.

Last season was my first time doing it, luckily I caught the very first race, so i got to take on the whole season. But i first found out about it about 2 years ago from another message board, and of course the person who went complained about his muffler getting ripped up and how it messed up his car. and of course, that turned me off. Then for some reason, I decided to give it a try in my Civic. and i did. worse thing that happened (other than a co-driver running off the course into a downed mini-tree) was a flat tire. i thought to myself, this is fun as hell and i can do this all day. and we did.

I go on numerous message boards and post about up coming races, folks are excited and just so awed on what they are seeing, but again its the whole "beater car" thing. I dont know. IMHO you dont need a beater, but it wouldnt hurt.

I dont see a lot of folks advertising about our races. From the most recent posts in here, I think a total of 3 people I know advertise about them.

Tell your friends who are interested in cars, unless they're all neat freaks, then im sure you'll be able to influence one or two. or heck, make them co-drive.

And if $$ is an issue, then chair an event (or co-chair).
maybe we can work something out with new-comers. some sort of referral type thing. maybe $2 back for each new person you get to a race or $5 back if you get them to become members in the club. i dont know. something to push attendance.

RichardNuss · **Posted:** Sat Aug 29, 2009 6:22 pm

Good post Kourosh.

RichardNuss · **Posted:** Sat Aug 29, 2009 6:52 pm

To help RallyX attendance, I'll offer the following deals:

1) 1989 Mazda MPV minivan, V6, RWD, ran fine when parked over a year ago. No title (previous owner insisted on turning in title as "salvage" - long story). FREE if someone wants to RallyX it. Currently located near Graham, NC.

I was going to sell or scrap #1 eventually, but I will offer free to RallyX-ers. I know it is not an ideal RallyX vehicle by any means. *I will not offer this free to anyone other than a RallyX-er.* I know I could get a couple hundred out of it if I scrap or sell. I will even offer to weld up the rear diff for free if you do the work to clean it up and prep for weld, any disassembly, etc.

2) 1989 Subaru GL-10 turbo 4WD 5-speed wagon. Limited slip rear diff. Runs but has rod knock. You saw this at 2008 RallyX races, and 2 races in 2009. Won street tire at OCS in Sept 2008, and was 2nd overall. Interior stripped of everything but the dash. 4WD will not disengage (would need to fix this before driving it on the street). Great condition 13-inch tires on aluminum rims. *Do* have title. Stock front seats (not the Corbeaus you saw at the RallyX). Has boost gauge and TurboXS manual boost adjustment. $300. Comes with extra 1.8L turbo we semi-seized at the January 2009 race if you want it. Plus spare set of four 13-inch magnesium rims with tires that hold air. Will sell lightly used (not RallyXed) rear shocks with stiffer Eibach springs for $50 if you want. Parts car automatic GL-10 4-door 4WD sedan also available with no engine for $100, with new snow tires. Another parts car GL-10 turbo 4WD sedan complete, not running, with 5-speed dual-range (low range!) trans - $150. AWD automatic Subaru XT6 for $300 also available, not running, could fix it up to race, or use as a donor for 5-lug bolt pattern and Impreza-style front strut conversion for the GL-10. Also for $150 a 92 Legacy FWD 5-speed wagon SMASHED in front-end, not fixable, but was going to be front strut and 2.2L engine donor for GL-10. And last - eight 14-inch aluminum 5-lug Legacy rims, will not fit the GL-10 unless you use the XT6 to do 5-lug conversion - $100. Or $1000 for all.

All #2 located at my house near Jordan Lake in Apex, NC. This deal is for RallyX-ers only. I was planning to take off some more parts and ask more for this, if not going to a THSCC RallyX-er.

PM me for details if you're interested in either package for THSCC RallyX. Again - offered for THSCC RallyX purposes only! (which is why I posted it here and not in the for sale section) When I offer these for general sale, they will be more expensive.

Michael Czeiszperger · **Joined:** Thu Apr 09, 2009 9:35 am **Posts:** 861

KouroshNeshat wrote:

I think our main goal, as a club, is to attract more attn to the rallyX side of things. But that may be hard since the first thing people think of when they hear rallyX, is beating on the car. While I agree, its really not as bad as some say.

Absolutely. It took some convincing, but Kevin Allen convinced me I could race my daily driver with only minor risk.

You're right the main thing is to attract more people, so how about this: I'll design a cool looking business card for the club that people can hand out to their friends, or put on the windshield's of cars that look like Rally material, i.e. subarus, reasonable 4WD vehicles, etc?

Michael Czeiszperger · **Joined:** Thu Apr 09, 2009 9:35 am **Posts:** 861

RichardNuss wrote:

To help RallyX attendance, I'll offer the following deals:

Amazing, thanks! I just left a phone message for a friend of mine I brought to the last race and was interested in getting a car, and is a school teacher.

Gwen Habenicht · **Posted:** Sat Aug 29, 2009 8:21 pm

Michael Czeiszperger wrote:

I'll design a cool looking business card for the club that people can hand out to their friends, or put on the windshield's of cars that look like Rally material, i.e. subarus, reasonable 4WD vehicles, etc?

Michael, not to rain on a pretty cool parade, but you might want to run this by the officers, or at least bring it up at the September meeting. Seems like this was discussed before at a meeting and there were some problems associated with the business card thing. Not sure, but it just rings a distant bell.

RichardNuss · **Posted:** Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:48 am

Another idea - do you think we'd have more participation if we broke the cars into more classes? I have heard folks say "My car would not be competitive". I know that's not the point, it's really about having fun, but getting a little trophy is a surprising motivator. If we had more classes, then more people could win. Those trophy-plaques aren't very expensive for the club, are they?

My 2 RallyX plaques are proudly on display in my office (next to my 2 demo derby trophies). I guess it seems dorky, but it made it even more fun when I placed at an event.

For example - maybe the cars that have limited-slip front diff (Sentra SER) need to be in a separate class from the other SU2s. That would include welded front diffs.

Maybe give potential RWD competitors their own class, since they are considered to be at a disadvantage over the FWDs, so people don't want to bring them out.

Maybe some distinction in the AWD class based on engine size or turbo, or something.

To get more 4x4 SUV/truck intrest, maybe put them in their own class, since they don't have much of a chance against cars.

Maybe a novice breakout for first time participants, with class-indexed times, similar to AutoX novices?

I don't know how the typical SCCA RallyX class breakdown, but there may be some ideas there.

You could collapse classes when there aren't enough in some of them to justify breaking them out.

Would it be worth trying? Or is it too much hassle for scoring? Overall event breakdown for working the course could stay the same - 2WD vs 4WD.

RichardNuss · **Posted:** Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:57 am

Another RallyX deal:

1986 Mazda B2000 pickup, 5-speed, 4-cyl carbureted, 2WD. Runs good but clutch is stuck engaged - buyer would need to pull the trans to fix. Probably needs clutch push rod backed off and slave cylinder replaced too. Not pretty, had dents, but all there. Has plastic bedliner. Needs fixed window panel (1/4 of sliding rear window) replaced - was broken recently. Missing tailgate. Has rear tow "platform" between rear framerails that you can mount a hitch ball to.

*Do* have title. Lights/lenses and exhaust should pass safety inspection - it had passed just before the clutch problem. Has not been on the road in a year or 2 since the clutch problem. But I started it the other day, and it still runs fine. Located at my house near Jordan Lake in Apex, NC. I have pics - let me know if interested.

$150

Not the ideal RallyX vehicle, but maybe someone could justify it as a 2nd car/stuff hauler as well as RallyX it.

Again - this is for THSCC RallyX-ers only! I will only sell it for $150 only if you are going to race it. I am going to advertize it separately at a higher price. I have a trailer, so can deliver within 100 miles of Apex for the cost of fuel.

Dustin Fredrickson · **Posted:** Sun Aug 30, 2009 4:24 pm

RichardNuss wrote:

To help RallyX attendance, I'll offer the following deals:

1) 1989 Mazda MPV minivan, V6, RWD, ran fine when parked over a year ago. No title (previous owner insisted on turning in title as "salvage" - long story). FREE if someone wants to RallyX it. Currently located near Graham, NC.

Just a word of caution, I'm pretty sure we would not allow this to run at a rally-x. The high center of gravity of a van is a recipe for somebody getting hurt.

Quote:

I know I could get a couple hundred out of it if I scrap....

Just FYI, scrap prices, at least as of this spring, were just a fraction of what they were a year and a half ago. I took a stripped BMW chassis in and even priced as "unprepared steel" (which is better than typical car prices) I got a whopping $20 for it. [/quote]

Michael Czeiszperger · **Joined:** Thu Apr 09, 2009 9:35 am **Posts:** 861

RichardNuss wrote:

Another RallyX deal:

Richard, where do you keep all of these junkers, your front yard :-)

From a classic marketing perspective, the funnel getting people in is perhaps earlier than getting the car. Before they want a car, they first need to be excited about the activity. You bring in X number of new people at each event, then 30% perhaps try a second time, and then maybe 10% of those turn into regular participants. Again, from a marketing perspective you can both increase the number of leads and the conversion rates.

The barrier to entry a competitor's very first rallycross experience is low since club members are great about providing co-drives. The only other alternative would to have club cars available to rent. The club could invest in an inexpensive rally-safe car and rent it for $50 a pop to newcomers. Once someone was hooked then the topic of a vehicle comes up. Personally, I'm driving my daily driver because Kevin Allen assured my Subaru could take the beating without a problem, but other people prefer to have a special car.

In case it helps, I brought a visitor to my first Rallycross last time, and he seemed to have a great time, but was completely wiped out by the heat. He's in pretty good shape, but spending nearly the entire day, most of which in intense heat and humidity, for 6 minutes of fun didn't seem like a good tradeoff. I'm not criticizing the event, as I had a blast, and my wife is going to race next time, I'm just trying to examine how to get the numbers up to the point we don't have to cancel anything.

THSCC Forums

Sept 5th RallyX @ BMW Farm

Who is online