THSCC Forums

So, I had a question. Knowing that the KISS method is always a club favorite, I am going to make the suggestion that for now on, the station making cone calls also calls in the station where the call was made from (a la Nationals Style). I bring this up as it affected me, of course. However, regardless of that, I don't think it would be that hard, at a rallyX, to notate the station and # of cones. This allows for protest after the fact, and the ability of the workers to state their case for the DNF/cone calls. Knowing that rallyX is generally a laid back environment, the bogey times are something that are just to great to ignore. It would take very little in the way of change of calls to implement compared to the usefulness of the service, IMHO.

I think it is worth some debate as I work on the bus doing timing, and this is something that would not be overly difficult to implement by those working RAW sheets at a rallyX.

Input/wisdom?

- dow

Where would the info go on the raw-sheet pads? Is there enough room to write "1/4, 1/6" etc?

_________________
Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

Just keep your distance from the cones and you won't have any problems.

How would the cone protest procedure go once you've decided that you absolutely did NOT hit that cone & somebody's going to have to prove it to you?

Well, I am going to use my specific example then.

There is no way that I DNF'd my 1st run. Cosby was riding with me, and I was taking it easy to get a feel for the car, and after riding with Cosby, I knew how slick the track was. I was just trying to get through for a good first run. Later, when I was doing T&S for the 2WD cars that I was DNF'd on my first run. Without any information there about where I supposedly DNF'd, it was brought up that you have to accept the corner workers verdict.

If that is not seen as a problem, or if we want to rely on a case by case basis, I will let it go. However, I am going to fight to the end with each one of these "calls" when I know that I did *not* DNF.... or someone has to tell me where, especially on a course that simple.

- dow

But how would your new system help in your case??

Corner worker would have said (for example)- "DNF- Missed gate station 3"

You'd say- "Oh hell no I di'nt"

Corner worker- "Oh yes you did"

Rinse and repeat.


I see what you're trying to say Brian- but I think at some point you just have to let it go. This stuff is supposed to be fun. If it gets to the point of being like RallyCross on asphalt, then I'll find another way to spend my time.

The recent GA Tech/Duke game comes to mind here. I know anyone who is not a rabid Duke fan knows that Duke got extra time at the end of the game (in this case- there's video evidence), but you don't hear GA Tech's coach trying to get the results overturned or the system changed. IMHO, it's a part of the GAME. Stuff happens.


Bret

I think it's clear, the data logger never lies:



Just here to help...

Jim

So I can understand, what does that "chart" mean? I am not getting out of it what you intended.




Hmm... the point is not making the situation unbearable for all. That isn't what I want. However, with a Bogey time of 2:00, and the fact that I paid $30 to run an event; throwing away a run when you think you *know* you didn't seems counter intuitive.

If none of us cared about competition, we would just run the course without timers and call it a day.

So, I can see where this thread may be heading, so this will probably be my last post in it. If change is going to cause a flame thread, then by all means, forget it. What my 'suggestion' would clear up would be knowing the correct course workers to talk to so hopefully a verdict could be reached. With some incorrect calls coming in at the bus, my point holds some validity.

If me trying to get some clarity out of a situation I didn't understand seems like it will ruin the experience for some, then I will just drop it, hold my head down, and just take it from THSCC like normal.



- dow

_________________
George Bright Member # 141
One of the youngest of the old farts.
Yes I voted against you joining the club.

Oh wow. Thanks for making my point.

[/thread]

- dow

I guess if the timing workers feel like harassing the course workers for specifics on which cone was hit or where you missed a gate, this might work. And if you get to question the worker who called it in and he says, "Well, you went out into the part that wasn't mowed, so that's a DNF, right?" then you win.

Bottom line is... we wouldn't be having this conversation if the course workers just PAY ATTENTION TO THE COURSE!!!!!!!!

I mean, it's not like it's an autox course where somebody's used every freaking cone on the trailer - there's only like 30 cones out there, if that. It really doesn't take that much concentration.

One thing to consider -- at an autocross a "false" DNF isn't nearly as big of a deal as at rallycross. We're using our autocross raw-sheet processes. At a rallycross it's huge and not common for obvious reasons. One wrong cone here or there at a rallycross, and a disputed DNF at an autocross isn't as big of a deal and it's easy for us to say "suck it, you're here to have fun, stop whining".

But one DNF at a rallycross can move a person from first to last in class. Maybe it would be worth considering a "DNF" log with worker name and location on course.

I'm with Brian on the false DNF thing -- if one was recorded for me at a rallycross that I know I didn't do, I'd be whining a LOT too. DNF at an autocross? No, not a big deal.

So - rally-x VPs, what do you guys think about possibly adding a little DNF due-diligence for rallycross raw sheets? I'd be happy to make a really simple form and try it out during T&S at the next event.

_________________
Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

hey, hey, hey!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i am relatively sure i called the DNF on Brian.

I MAY HAVE BEEN INCORRECT. i apologize if i was. if i remember correctly he went thru the water hazard straight into the wall of cones. those cones were laying down but he was on the other side of those cones and came back onto the course.

i also called the same call again on Cosby's car (don't know who was driving) later in the AM. i radioed in to control asking for a judgement and was told if the cones were down no DNF occured.

if anything my autoX brain kicked in and i percieved "4 wheels off" = DNF.

calling in station signatures would not be difficult for me but not so sure everyone could do it on a regular basis.

if i F'ed up i apologize. truth of the matter is Brian, we were trying to get Vincent a better finish. subterfuge i tell ya. sabeetage!!! it's dispiitctable!!!!!!!!

Maybe we need some scale cars and cones to demonstrate to the workers what constitutes a cone and what is a DNF. I'll bring some hotwheels next time.

_________________
RedLanternRacing, builders of the fastest cars in last place.
Success is not an option.
1981 Scirocco, "Vera"

Yeah, that's fine- go ahead. The impact of a "false DNF" is really high in rallycross, and although I'd rather we avoid the problem altogether by giving the workers adequate training, the fact is that the drivers meeting is already too long and most people aren't listening anyway. I would assume that the worker coordinators aren't putting novices together at worker stations, so we should always have at least 1 experienced person at every station.

So, that just leaves the experienced people. Repeat after me:

• Pointer cones don't count for anything, no matter how many of them there are.
• There's no such thing as "4 wheels off" in rallycross.

_________________
Carl Fisher

Be Cool to the Pizza Dude:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... Id=4651531

4 Wheels Off is kinda the point of a RallyX.... isn't it?